Thomas Vinterberg

Thank you. There you go. Thomas Vinterberg, everyone. Thomas Vinterberg Thank you. Thank you very much. Thomas Vinterberg, So, today I have the great pleasure and responsibility to try to guide you through a little masterclass on filmmaking. The theme of the TwentyThree Summit this year is the human side of digital, and I also think there's a lot of humanness in Thomas and his work that you'll hear throughout here. We are living in a world where everyone in this room now needs to learn what Thomas has spent 35 years excelling at the highest level can be done in the world. He's a director's director, the one the other directors respect the most, right? Not the one that takes a Hollywood gig every six months necessarily to direct something, but to create his own craft and tell his own stories. So, if you're up for it, we'll go along and try to learn what it means to do film or video, as we call it in our world. Thomas Vendebergh I'm still trying to learn as well. I just want to warn you a little bit. Thomas Vendebergh Great. Thomas, I first wanted to start a little bit on the medium of film or video. I mean, this thing that nowadays is pervasive. We all have an 8K recording system in our pockets. Everyone is making films and videos. Thomas Vendebergh We might go to events in London. Thomas Vendebergh What? Thomas Vendebergh What? Thomas Vendebergh What happened? Thomas Vendebergh Carry on, Thomas. Thomas Vendebergh There you go. Thomas Vendebergh Something about London. Thomas Vendebergh That's live production for you. And we might go to London at some point, but let's see. No, let's get back. So, film and video is something that I think occupies a lot of our interests nowadays. But I mean, how did you get into it? Why did you choose to dedicate your life to a medium or to a craft like that? Thomas Vendebergh I wanted to get famous. Basically, because I was 16 when I started and I was at that time very occupied with showing myself to the world. And since then, I've been occupied with hiding myself from the world. But I very quickly fell in love with this medium because it's a collective effort along like almost like a military operation if it's a real film. Everyone gathered, machines gathered a lot of entrepreneurship and preparation just to capture these little fragile, vulnerable, truthful, irrational moments from an actor that we all can mirror ourselves in. So, this combination of business and art, I really enjoyed from the beginning and telling stories and images was just something that I got attracted to really quickly. I had learned from my father who raised me with comic books, not with books. He tried to have me read books, but I didn't bother. So, the comic books, he said, the most important stuff that happens are between the frames, the white lines, all the stuff that you have to imagine, all the stuff that you have to envision. So, there's how did they get there? And then a story starts in your mind. And if we're capable of making either short little films or longer films or series or whatever it is that stays with us, then it's because we've activated the audience and had them start thinking about what's between the lines. What happened before the film? What are they going to do after the film or the show? What were they really thinking about? And that scene where they pretended to laugh, but they felt sad, all of that, all these cracks into the film around the film is what I'm trying to navigate in as a filmmaker. And I was immediately very attracted to that. Wow. You have a very kind of unique trait, I guess, to being a director that you write your own films together with collaborators, but you write. Also, why you don't, I mean, if you look at your output, you're not somebody that's hired in every 12 months to direct something. You work many years on finding stories and on creating stories. Can you talk a little bit about how do you find a story and what is it in that whole environment before you get on set and the creative process? Of knowing when you got it or not got it? Why is it important that you write your own stories instead of just directing somebody else's story? Well, I've got to say, I do occasionally do work for hire. And my next step might be work for hire. And I just did a Prada commercial, which was very much work for hire and or work for very much hire, at least. And but the thing about ideas, is that it belongs to the world of the uncontrollable. It's called getting an idea. It's something you get. It's not something you can apply for or find on the internet necessarily. Or what people mostly do is they go into a room with a whiteboard and then they have a boss and they say, so find some ideas. And it's like, that's not how you find ideas. They appear to you. Suddenly in the supermarket or when you're doing your laundry. And then you might develop them on the whiteboard with your friends. So my life has been a lot about being receptive, receptive to these ideas that would come to me. And then I guess I treat ideas a bit like love affairs in the sense that I test, is this for real? Is this something that keeps me awake? Often ideas are different. Then you expect it. It's a different material than you thought you would be doing. It's a bit like meeting someone that looks entirely different than you had in mind. But there's just something about this person that keeps you awake and that you keep, there's a reason you keep calling. With "Another Round" that I made as my last feature film, the idea came to me in 2013 and I made it in 2019. that's how long I kept it at distance to see if it was really something. And it was. And take us, what's the first idea? It's a, for those of you... "Another Round" it's a theoretical research paper or an idea basically. Where does it start? Did you read the paper? You heard the story over dinner or somewhere that somebody told you this? Well, it started with me being a little bit addicted to doing something slightly scandalous. I was attracted to that. If there's an element of scandal in what you do, you're on thin ice. And that's a good place to be because then you become explorative and awake and it attracts people who want to do something scary with you. That's what we did with dogma back in the days. And so here, the scandal for Tobias and I was to make a celebration of alcohol. That's what we wanted to do. We were like, so we're in this country, but people talk in a very chaste way about drinking and yet still we're pissed all the time. And we have all set all records in the world. So what's this about? You know, I had this, do we have time for a little anecdote? Yeah, because I had a guest from Los Angeles, a screenwriter, lesbian, vegan, super intelligent, fantastic woman. And she meets my daughter and she says, so what are you going to do today, Nana? And Nana says, oh, I'm going to do the lake run. And she's like, okay, but what's that? So we're going to run around Gentofte Sø, Lake and empty a box of beer. And then she looks at the dad and she's like, when is he going to stop this? But the dad is Scandinavian. So he's like, you know, goofing around. And she said, well, aren't you going to get sick, Nana? And Nana said, well, yes, but if we vomit in sink, time will be deducted. So that's okay. And this American woman was like, what the fuck's going on here? And she said, what about the police? And Nana got a little nervous and she said, oh, but the teachers are there. So this is the country we live in. And I thought there's a story here. There's a story here. And eventually that's a scene in the movie, basically. But having said that, that's not a story. So that's why it took us from 2013, actually, to 2019. Because what are they doing? What is the action of this film? You can't just have a theme. You need them to do stuff. And we couldn't figure out what they were doing except from drinking. So that's where... I remember reading you, the first plot was that they were air traffic controllers that were drunk. Right. And it didn't last. Why did that idea not last? It was fun, but it was kind of a joke. He was really bad at his job. He was nervous. And then when he started drinking, he could just land those flights. But that's a joke. And it couldn't last for two hours. So we pushed it away, did other things. And then suddenly I ran into this quote from a Norwegian psychologist who said that every human being should be born with a small percentage of alcohol in the blood. To become a more creative person. And I was like, okay, so if they test this, like, theoretically, and if they're teachers, not in an air... Then suddenly there's a project. You always need a project. You need something for someone to do. And maybe they achieve a goal, or maybe they don't. And that's what drama is about. You need something for someone to do, and you need obstacles. And then you might have a drama. But we were looking for that for quite a long time. But throughout that time, we all knew we're going to make a film about alcohol at some point. Because we were super attracted to this idea. We both lived a very Danish, normal life, which was full of children, and nine to four, and laundry, and... Food for the rabbits, and divers. And I think we both had an urge to be liberated. And then we looked at the youngers of this country. Do I talk too much about another round? No, no, it's fine. Okay, let's go. And we saw a whole generation of people being measured all the time. Even their iPhones measure how many steps they take. They have grades at school. They grade each other with likes and not likes. How many followers do I have? So there's a constant observation of each individual as a performer, which I think is constraining. And I felt that that would be one of the reasons that they're drinking. And I understood the urge to break free of that. And that's kind of what became the engine behind this. Super. Let's move on a little bit to talk about sort of being on a set, directing everyone there. How do you work it? What's your style? Everyone in this room are suddenly directing people. You need to sit down. There's how it's supposed to be. And then there's reality. Let's hear how it really works. How the reality is. Well, reality is very stressful. Always. Incredibly stressful. It's always like, how are we going to get this sofa through this tube during this day, rainy day? And how, in other words, how are we going to create the scene that I've been working on for years now in 45 minutes in a decent way? So there's a lot of time constraint, which I find the less creative constraint you can have, actually. It's just stressful. Having said that, there's a bunch of people, very competent. There's some actors on their toes. And you've got your words. And you've got some possibilities as well. That's what you've got to have to look at. Like, we have these eight hours. They need lunch at some point. But we have these eight hours and these scenes. Let's see what we can do. Then we rehearse. We walk through with the actors. And at the moment of shooting, hopefully, we're all very, very, very prepared. You cannot prepare too much, I guess. How much do you rehearse with the actors? As much as possible. As much as possible. Without tiring them. You don't want to remove. The appetite. The eagerness. So sometimes I rehearse things that are not in the script. Then we improvise scenes from their childhood or from right before the scene that they're supposed to do. Like, if someone has to pop the question for someone, then we rehearse him waiting at the reception, talking to the receptionist. And then maybe this becomes the scene instead. Because my philosophy is that if you're really prepared, you can create a foundation for the actor that is solid. And then they can let go. Then when the camera flicks on, they can let go. And do what life is full of, which is irrationalities. Things that were not meant to be like that. People laugh at funerals. And some cry at weddings. The emotional life of a human being is so unpredictable and so irrational at times. And the only way you can get to those surprises that sparkles real life is if they're very prepared. That's also the only way where you can say, fuck my lines. I don't like them. Find your own words, but express the same. Okay, but then they need to know the character really well to be able to do that. How do you create that environment for the actors? To feel that safe. That they're willing to go on that journey together with you and push themselves. And not just read the lines. By being incredibly blunt. And direct. And honest. So that we're an eye-hide. They're honest with me as well. Sometimes when I work in England, they're not used to that. Bluntness. Like, what did you just say? But they kind of like it. There's a complete transparency. Between us. Which means that one day on Festen. A celebration that I did. Three decades ago. This is Paprika Steen. Reminding me of this. That I had a great laugh right after her take. And I called her to the monitor. To show her how ridiculously bad it was. And she was like, okay, I like this guy. Because he's going to tell me. But we were in it together. I don't think she did it bad. We did it bad. I said the wrong thing to you. I asked you to do the wrong thing. And it didn't work. Let's find something else. So it's all an eye-hide. And it's in a... Oh my God. Oh my God. There's so much happening. There's so much happening here. But that's the thing about film. All the stuff that happens behind is what's interesting. Anyway, but... I think it also seems there's a lot of leadership in creating. And sort of the whole load is on you. And even more here. Where it's your story. You worked on it for six years. You're going to get this down. And I mean, everyone's literally reporting to you in some way. Right. Sometimes it goes well. And sometimes it doesn't. I mean, it belongs to this conversation as well. That I failed entirely. With some of these things as well. And... But still... Even though... A film hasn't gone well. It's one of those children that means more to me than my work for higher children. If that makes sense. When you've done it... When you've been writing your own script, it's a film that no one else could have done. No one else would have done another round than Tobias and myself. Particularly not in the climate that it was made in. Four white, semi-fat, sweaty men. Teaching students to drink. Difficult. To get financed anywhere. But in Denmark, for some reason, not. But, you know... Well, we've got to say... We've got to take our hat off for the system we have here. We have art support in filmmaking. Which is very unique. We have state support. So, where they treat this as an art form. If they find the story interesting. And the director behind it interesting. You get support. And then you have a film. Which everyone abroad is very envious about. And that's the reason for Danish film success. I think almost solely. That is a unique sort of ecosystem and support that makes it... Without it, there wouldn't be an industry. But with it, there's an industry that creates landmarks. And wins Oscars and whatever. So, yeah. I think that leads us into a little bit... I really wanted to talk a little bit into creative constraints. Because everyone in this room are doing video with almost zero budget. Or even they might just have a job. So, from there on, the budget is zero. They have a camera. They have some tasks. There are a lot of people that want to do a lot of things. The budget is literally zero. From there on, right? Yeah, yeah. Good place to start. Good place to start. Yeah. We've done that. I did a movement 200 years ago. With my fellow friend Lars von Trier. Called Dogma 95. Where we constrained ourselves in a similar way. We took away... We made 10 rules. Took away light, costumes, music, makeup. Clothes. But it would be their own clothes. And so, we sort of tried to strip it down to a handheld camera. And some actors. And some dialogue. And just having constraints in itself was incredibly creative. Knowing... Like in a game where you play cowboys and Indians. You know that if I shoot you, you have to count to 10. And then I can... You know. Rules are inspiring. A painter would always sort of find the four or three colors. And it's ballet. And a frame of this size. And, you know. So, constraints and rules that are very specific will always be creative, I think. And that's kind of what we were up to with Dogma. That's what we sort of made an ultimate experiment with. Your film, The Celebration, was your Dogma contribution. Right. I think we have a little clip from it to roll. But, I want to say something before we see that clip then. Because... What the idea was that the actors were set free. You can do whatever you want because we're handheld and we're not lit. We can follow you wherever you want to go. Which scared the shit out of them. That was not constraints. That was the opposite. That was ultimate freedom. And they felt that as burden. They're used to stepping into the light and growing from that. And finding the marks in the floor. So, suddenly they had nothing. You can improvise. You can say what you... And they were like, give me some direction, god damn it. I'm like, I can't because I just follow you with a camera. So, in the case here of Thomas Bo Larsen freaking out. I said, you just freak out on your wife because she forgot your shoes. I need more than that, Thomas, for Christ's sake. I can't live with this. I was like, okay. You do 50%. And then she says, bring your own shoes. Then you empty a glass of water and shut the door. And then you go to 100%. Okay, boom. And then he was on. And that's the scene. You can see it. Let's roll it. Hey Mette, I can't find them Come (whistles) Have you looked in the bags? I don't know where the the shoes are You need to find them They must be here somewhere I've been looking at this. Take it easy, Michael. It's here somewhere. Listen. I can't go down in these brown shoes. My father's will be completely out of it. No, Michael. I know it. They're here somewhere. Yeah, where? I've been looking everywhere. I think I forgot them. You don't say that. Are you with me? Okay. Then you go home after them. We're going down in two hours. You go down. Thomas, take the car and I'll see you after them. Are you with me? I don't know what to do. But you have to. I don't have to go down to my father in socks, man. Why do I have to go home now, man. I'm so tired of this. What would your mother and father think, man. I don't know what you can do and can't do. But I don't know what to do. I don't want to party with these shoes. And it's completely insane, man. What about packing your own things, huh? I packed yours, I packed mine, I packed the kids'. And then you're like, All need to be timed and ready. If you're so completely upset all the time, then go take your suitcase and pack your shit. YOURSELF! I'm going to tell you something. It's you who's packing these clothes. And it's the only time And you're need to fucking figure out where those shoes are I don't give a shit You're just packing those fucking shoes And the creative constraint that you got it without subtitles. But perhaps... It was kind of... It didn't make sense. Empty in a glass of water or closing... I'm like, we just need to define a middle for him of the scene so that he can take off from there. So he can... You know, so that there's a pattern. You need patterns. You need restrictions. You need rules. If you just float, you don't know what to do. I guess it's the same when you write and develop stuff. You need... I mean, in writing, it's a lot about... So I do this from 1 o'clock to 4 o'clock or whatever you do. And I'm going to do... We're going to end on 100 pages. And this is more or less where my character is going. This can spark ideas. Just sitting in a room, with no end, cannot, for me at least. Incredible. And the direction for the actors here was basically... Empty glass of water. No, it was like 50%, drink water, 100%. So that there was a middle of the scene. And he was like, when do I drink the water? When she says, asks you to bring your own shoes. Okay, cool. And then that was it. So that's pretty much what I said. But before that, we had a lot of rehearsals so that they knew what kind of characters this was. Thomas was wanting to play Freddie from Godfather. Not Freddo, but James Caan from Godfather. We ripped everything off from Godfather, actually. I said to my main character, Henning Moritzen, so you're Don Corleone. And it was like, I prefer to find my own character. Okay, fine. Then I went to Oleg Thompson and I said, so you're Al Pacino. Okay, he understood. That's how we did it. That was the vocabulary to do it. Incredible, incredible. Let's move on a little bit to cinematography and a little bit more into the craft. I mean, obviously, in your field, you'll always be working with somebody doing the cinematography. What's it like? Obviously, dogma here, very wild, kind of a little bit like an iPhone nowadays or something in shooting style that you have that freedom of expression. But obviously, it's much more designed or crafted in classic filmmaking. Where are you on kind of the journey and the whole visual language of what you do? It depends on what I do. This is the language we speak. This is our pen. It's the camera. So it's so important how we use it, in what ways we use it, why do we move it, why do we do what we do. So we are trying to create a concept and I'm trying to cast a cinematographer that is right, that comes with the right emotionality and approach to the material in the same way I cast a main character. It's equally important. And then I develop a language with this person and then we try to follow this language as well as possible. And again, in cinematography, it's so much about what you don't see. Like sex scenes where you see the whole butchery can be unerotic. Whereas scenes where you almost see nothing through some railings and something is happening and you're not sure what's happening can be very interesting because you start imagining things. So cinematography is as well as acting and writing and whatever in the movie industry about hiding. It's about suppressing what it's really about. If I translate that into an actor's work, let's say you want to act drunk in another round, you would pretend not to be drunk. You would try to sit up straight and hide that you're drunk. And then in one crack you'd show, oh my God, this one slipped. But other than that, everything is about hiding it. Everything is about hiding what's important and not overtelling it and not giving the audience too many of our intentions, but let them feel it by hiding it. And I guess filmmaking and cinema cinematography has that element to it. There's this Godfather scene, which is both about limitations and about hiding at the same time because... So here it is. They are doing Godfather 2. Godfather 1 was a massive success. Marlon Brando, because of the massive success, wants a crazy salary. And Coppola is not ready to give him that salary. So they do his birthday party anyway. But without him. And we can show it. Do we have time? Let's roll it. Let's roll it. Yeah, but it's about hiding and about saving money at the same time. Slanty-eyed bastards, huh? Dropping bombs on our own backyard on Pop's birthday. They didn't know it was Pop's birthday. They didn't know it was Pop's birthday. But we should have expected it after the oil embargo. What do you mean expect it? Expect it or not, they got no right dropping bombs. What are you, a jackal of us or something on their side? I understand 30,000 men enlisted this morning. Watch your saps. How are their saps? Honey, come on. We don't have to talk about the war. Hey, B, you talked to Carl, right? They're saps because they risk their lives for strangers. that's Pop talking. You're goddamn right that's Pop talking. They risk their lives for their country. Your country ain't your blood. You remember that. I don't feel that way. I don't feel that way. Well, if you don't feel like that, why don't you just quit college and go to join the army? I did. I enlisted in the Marines. Mikey, why? Why didn't you come to us? What do you mean? I mean, Pop had to pull a lot of strings to get you deferment. I didn't ask for it. I didn't ask for the deferment. I didn't want it. Come on, come on. I'm not going to walk. Come on. Come on. Hey, come on. Sonny. Sonny. Sonny. Go on. Sit. Sit down. Mommy, Daddy's fighting again. Of course, she'll call in a tree. Go ahead. Uncle Michael, Mama. Daddy. Nice. Nice. I bet your father's hot on his birthday. Yes, well, Mike. Congratulations. That's right. Encourage him. Come on, give me a drink. Come on. You gotta understand, your father has plans for you. Now, many times, I've talked about your future. Talk to my father about my future. My future. Mikey, he has high hopes for you. Well, I have my own plans for my future. Why don't you go to college and get stupid? You're really stupid. He's here. Come on. Uncle Sonny, come on. Shh. Come on. Come on. Stupid. I'm going to be quiet. Give me a minute. Give me a minute. So that's how you save a hundred or a million dollars. A million dollars in the acting fees. And it's pretty amazing because it shows something else, his solitude, and you completely imagine what happens in the corridor. And you see the father arriving. It's all there, but it's not there. It lives in the back of your head. So that's beautiful craft. Amazing. We want to end this end a little bit on the story of another round. Because when the film came out, it was kind of a special time. It was 2021. And you're in a very peculiar world at that point, as we all know, that moved the world of video a lot. Because suddenly we had that constraint that travel wasn't possible and nothing worked. Can you share a little bit the story about how that as a constraint actually kind of ended up making a huge difference? Because you ended up being on this crazy campaign tour where all... Without being here. Right. It was COVID. And you got Guillermo del Toro, all kinds of people to join you. And it was a whole different kind of... You were sitting at home. In a tuxedo, accepting an award in your office. What's it like? We went there for the Oscars, though. But only... But yeah. So the whole campaign system around the Academy Award is based upon showing your film to as many members as possible. Meaning buying cinema complex, feeding them sandwiches, and making sure that as many as possible attend. And you have people... To attract these people, you have other famous people interviewing yourself about your movie to make people come. That costs money. Because you have to fly this person in and you have to rent a cinema and buy all these sandwiches, all that. And in Denmark, we don't have that kind of money. And we can never compete. And in America, they don't have that boundary. They have a lot of justice around the Academy. But the thing about money, they don't care about. If you have more money, you win. And it's just a different system over there. And that's where COVID helped us. Because suddenly, it was all about webinars. I did... I campaigned half a year in my office with all the directors that I admire that did not have to leave their own home either in front of wide audiences and did not have to leave their homes. And a lot of it was very raw and authentic because you were seeing an old friend again. It was not like you were on a big stage sitting telling stories. There was also, you know, a rawness to it or directness. Yeah. Because we were in our houses. So I... And I was... My family was very wounded at that time for private reasons. So it was really sort of important for me to stay home. It was like COVID saved us and basically graveled the path to an Oscar for us. I don't think we could have gone through with it if it was the old way. Hopefully also because of the filmmaking. Maybe. Maybe. But it was an incredible time. How do you accept... I think you accepted the BAFTA in a tuxedo in your home. In my living room, yeah. Crazy friends next door. Yeah. Well, the Oscar was... It was like this. They said, you have one minute. Your speech is one minute. Don't say anything. Don't say any second names. It's got to be really great. We don't want to see a paper in your hand. Good luck. And that was it. And I was like... Fuck you. I rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed my speech. In the same way... As... I asked my actors to do. So that I would make sure it would work. If I was lucky enough to win. But it was seven minutes. And... I was like... I just hope they don't cut me off. And... I had my... Actually I was strategic. I had my... Publicist calling them saying the best is in the end. Don't cut him off. So we ended with seven minutes. Ended up working. Incredible. But it was... Yeah. It was a very emotional time. Yeah. Yeah. We wanted to end a little bit with a... With a beautiful scene. I think other directors have described this as one of the most beautiful scenes ever captured. Your heroes. Hero directors. And I think it also sets a little bit for the scene. A little bit about understanding really people. So you worked several times with the... Mads Mikkelsen. And... And... Obviously even know that he used to... He used to be... A dancer. A dancer. Before he became an actor. Yeah. We had some conversations about that. And you've worked many years on trying to convince him to be able to do this. Yeah. I understand. It took some massaging and some grinding. Because he sort of wanted... Nowadays he's an actor, not a dancer. Well... He was like... Thomas. I'm a school teacher. So why can't I suddenly dance? And I was like... I don't know. But I want to see you dance. But... Thomas. You got to do better than that. And... And... It's an interesting thing this. Because sometimes... What we do... Is about doing the irrational. Doing the extraordinary. Doing what's not meant to be done. But where you can just feel... Wow. This would be exciting. Like if you write things... And you're like... Oh... Wait a minute. What about this? That would be too much. And then do it. That's a great sensation. It's because then you are... As I said earlier... You're on thin ice. And... And you're... You're... Taking chances. It's a risk. And this was definitely a risk. A school teacher... Suddenly able to dance. And it did give us some problems... In the editing as well. Because... When we ask test audiences... So how do you like... These guys? They were like... We hate them. I'm like... Why is that? Because their friend dies... And they start dancing. It's crazy. And we had to adjust... And get the pain... Molded into the scene. And the loss of their friend... Had to be part of that balance. And... So it was not... It was not easy. But it was... And... But it was a great risk. And we enjoyed that risk together. I think it's an incredible... You can see it in his dance. That... We were to-ing and fro-ing a little bit. Like... He dances. Then he retreats. And then he dances. And then finally... He gives in. That's kind of... How it was... In the process as well. Incredible. Let's... Let's... Lean back. And then roll the clip for you. There you go. Thank you. Incredible. Before we end, Thomas, and please do, if anyone wants to reenact this moment, you can probably pick out where in Copenhagen Harbor tonight you want to be dancing and jumping in for a harbor swim, if you look carefully. Thomas, what are you working on just now? What are the ideas popping in your head that obviously you don't want to tell us about, but what are some of the themes or what are some of the things that are kind of top of mind for you just now? I'm working on several things. So you're always working on several things? No, I'm working on too many things right now. Okay. Because some of the things are international and it's like this in the United States, most projects do not get made, whereas in Denmark most projects get made. And it's a different ball game over there. So you need several things boiling. I'm working on a Danish or an American version of Brothers Lionheart, which Scandinavians will know, but abroad Scandinavia, nobody knows about. And that's sort of what's come the longest way. And then I'm occupied with a Danish project about lying. About lying? Yeah, because there's so much lying going on. We have AI now. Everything can be said and everything in a believable way and it might not be the person talking. We have crazy presidents who are just accepting lie as a tool. And now, you know, so I'm trying to find a concept of an, and a story within the context of testing a life in lying. Like testing a life in alcohol, you know, so, um, so I'm working with that as well. That sounds like a very meaningful thing to, to give us a film on. Yeah, but we're at that point where I was in 13 and there's a long way to 2019. It's very early days. We're looking forward to it. Thomas, thank you so much for giving us a masterclass on, uh, on story, on, uh, the essentials of being human, um, on what it means to direct. I think it's a prize for all of us. I think we all think that you really direct on a set, but also how you create the foundation for people to, to, uh, let loose and perform. Uh, I think there are so many things that we take for granted that, uh, with your 35 year history, the risk taking, um, so thank you so much for giving us those insights and inspiring us all. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, Thomas Vinderberg. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.