Webinar Lessons

Hello everyone and welcome back to Webinar Days 2025, the annual event for everyone doing webinars. I hope you're all doing well and that you found the last session about Webinar 6 as inspiring as I did and that you're all seated, comfortable, and have some something nice to drink and then ready for the next session because we have some good stuff on the program for you today. If you're new in this session, welcome so much. My name is Amelia Holmsen and I work as head of community marketing here at TwentyThree, but I have the pleasure of being your host for Webinar Days. Now this is actually the sixth consecutive year we've been running Webinar Days with the goal to inspire everyone who's participating or organizing or working with webinars and to move the field of webinars and digital events forward. In this session we have webinar leaders from both Follium and Made2C who have created and scaled webinars at their companies from one-off webinars to global programs that have played a huge role in meeting their company's commercial objectives and they are here today to share some of their lessons. So first up I'm very happy to welcome Lev Cribb. He is the founder of Made2C. Made2C is a leading British video agency that specializes in live digital communication, working with global brands to build their webinar programs and of course help consult on their strategies as well. So let's just get started and please welcome Lev to the screen. Hi Amelia, good to be here. Hi Lev, how are you doing? Very well, thank you. Great, are you able to hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Perfect. I might have to talk to my production team because I don't have you in my ear. Let's see. Again, this is the joke or the... Perfect, there we have it. Yeah, you can hear me now. Yes, now I can hear it. Good. I got you. Wonderful. Amazing. Sorry, it's always a little bit the struggle of running a real live event. We're talking about webinar lessons today. Amelia, I'm sure we can add this to it and see the positive side of it. I love that. Thank you so much for bearing with me and covering over. Now I've started off with the technical issues so that means that we have a clean slate for the rest of the session. Excellent. Do you want to get started with a little bit of an introduction before we deep dive into the lessons? Yeah, absolutely. I mean you covered some of it but first of all, pleasure to be here and thank you to everybody who's joined the webinar. My name is Lev Kribb. I'm the founder and managing director of Made2See and as you said, Amelia, we work with B2B brands around the world. A lot of them in the enterprise, tech space, pharma space, financial services and we do really anything on the strategic and the execution side that has anything to do with a lens and a microphone. So whether that's building out high scale, high performance webinar programs, or whether that is video production on sites, remote, animated or non-animated, podcast or not podcast. So really anything to do with a camera and a microphone or indeed multiple cameras and multiple microphones as well. Production can vary from something very lo-fi and simplified to something that looks a little bit more like a Hollywood movie. Right. Cool. But you had some lessons that you had to find in I would say the formatting of a Friends episode. Is that correct? You spotted that. Yes, that's right. So I only have one slide today and I want to make this interactive for the audience and for you. If you bring the slide up, there are 14 different lessons. That slide could have been, have a lot more on it. But I tried to create something with a little bit of a structure in terms of whether these lessons are strategic or tactical, tech related or not tech related. And I thought, well, rather than me droning on and picking them, let's see if you or the audience want to hear about any particular ones and we can just dive in and see how many we get through in 20 minutes. I just want to say I think this is so fun. I first of all appreciate the Friends reference. Second of all, such a fun way to create like an engaging session and also let the audience have a little bit of a saying in what it is we cover today. But you allowed me to pick the first one, which I have. And I would love to hear the one with webinar psychology. I think psychology is always a very interesting topic when diving into something new. What is people's mindset? I'm very curious to hear the story behind this one. Yeah. Great, great pick. I mean, I think they're probably all great picks. But the one with the webinar psychology, I think when we run webinars, we look at it as a technical thing, a content thing, a public facing thing. But we focus on that perhaps sometimes a little bit too much. And those things are absolutely important. And it's all of that. But also there is a psychology behind running webinars successfully. And in particular, when you go beyond running one, two, three at a time, from time to time, when you start looking at building and scaling your webinar output, and that doesn't have to be hundreds. But if you start thinking, I'm not just going to do one, I'm not just going to do two or three. I'm going to make this a regular part of my marketing activity, my communications activity. Psychological aspects of that are really important. And there are two particular psychological principles that we see behind webinar success. One of them is called the halo effect. And the other one is called the conservatism bias. So the halo effect talks about effectively impact that your perception has on people's webinars. So let's say you're an audience member, and I'm organizing a webinar. And your perception is that, hey, these are really good. I love this webinar that I attended today. Really cool, interesting. The guy had 14 lessons to share, and he let me pick. I love that. So the halo effect means that my perception is really positive. And by default, my perception is going to be positive of other webinars as well. Maybe the next webinar or the webinar after that isn't as good, isn't as interesting, isn't as relevant to me. Perhaps there was a technical glitch at the beginning. The halo effect means that the positivity I have from one webinar gets transferred onto the others for a good amount of time. And the more positive perceptions you create, the stronger that halo effect becomes. I don't just think that one webinar was good. I think all of these webinars that this company is organizing, they're generally good. Yeah, I'll tell my friends about it. Hey, these guys do really good webinars. I've maybe only seen two or three of them, and they've done 100. But I'll say, these guys know how to run webinars. So that's a halo effect. The positive impact you have by doing one really well on the next one, and then doing that really well, and that has an effect on the next one, is really, really strong and positive. That also goes the other way around, right? Negative perception. You might have a first experience with somebody's webinar, and that's negative. And the halo effect means that could mean also, well, okay, so maybe these guys don't run webinars very well. And that can be also done for the negative side of things. So it's really important to have a good go at doing webinars. And I think that's a really good webinar that people like, because that halo effect. The conservatism bias is another one that's really related to that. Because the conservatism bias says that it's difficult to change a perception, even if you have the evidence in front of you that you should change your mind. You're going to hang on to what you already believe. So if the halo effect has told me, hey, this company doesn't know how to run webinars. I attended one, but it was rubbish. And I think they probably all like that. Then it's really difficult to change my mind from that as an audience member, because of the conservatism bias. Even though it may have been only two webinars that weren't great, and 98 were brilliant. If I've experienced the two first, then my conservatism bias kicks in, and it's really hard to change my mind. So all taken together, I'm not going to join in too long. But all taken together means, you know, it's really, really important to deliver something really good every single time. Because it has a positive effect. And it means also, it's actually a good thing. It's anchored much stronger in people's minds. I see. And I think it's a very interesting point. And I think I can feel that as well, apply to our own team, that once we get into the, let's say, habit of doing webinars every week, it feels easier or gets easier. And we kind of build off that momentum. And then it's a positive spiral somehow. And they seem to be getting easier. So I can totally relate to that psychology. And I just want to pull up another one here, because I can see that you have one that is the one with easy annual planning. And I think it relates maybe a little bit to the psychology one. Like, how does planning your yearly webinar wheel, you know, help on execution or help on strategy? I'm curious about this one. Yeah, it's one of my favorite ones, because whenever we bring up annual planning or annual scheduling with a customer, either whether they say it or whether they just feel it, there is always the element of, Lev, there is no chance I know what I'm going to talk about in October next year. There's no chance I can plan that far ahead. It's just not going to work. Things will change. Messaging might change. But what we're saying is that annual planning can be very easy. If it's done in the right way. We're not saying you need to define who the speaker is going to be on the, you know, the 10th of October, 2026, and what the topic is. But what you do know is that you're going to run webinars next year. So if you know that you're going to run webinars next year, you probably have some targets assigned to that. So you know how much, you know, how many leads perhaps you need to generate or how much pipeline. And you can work back your way from pipeline. Okay, well, pipeline is this much that we need to generate. X amount is going to come from webinars. Contribution. So that means we need X number of MQLs or SQLs, which means we need, you know, you're going back on your conversion rates effectively. You're going back and say, okay, we need X number of attendees and X number of registrants, therefore. So we know the number that we need to run next year. And that could just be determined by budget, right? It could just be that, okay, we have enough budget to run or resources to run 20 webinars or 10 webinars. So you know that already. And you know that they should run regularly with frequent intervals. So you can space them apart. So you can define dates a year in advance. And you can also, from your messaging, define the overall themes of those and also which part of the database they should appeal to, you know, early stage buyers or leads or late stage leads that, you know, are about to turn into clients potentially with the right nudge. So you can start planning all those things. And you have a framework, a schedule effectively. And then on a quarterly basis, you can then start filling in the gaps. Okay, so as you get closer, you know, okay, well, this theme, this target audience needs this particular message. And either you have that content available or not. And you can create that content if you don't. And then you can identify who's best to deliver that. But you have all the core elements already in place. And then the more fluid things you can fill in later. But more often than not, we see that annual planning not taking place. And that's when you then become, you fall behind. You know, you sort of then have a four, five, six, eight weeks horizon. And you're constantly chasing the next one. And it becomes really disjointed. So that's really important to have that look ahead, even though you don't know all the details yet. Yeah, definitely. And I think for a lot of teams, it's also helps to calibrate that mental load of what it actually requires to run webinars. And I think if you look at a year, it feels like you have a lot of time. But maybe if you look at, you know, what are your plans for the rest of Q1 or the rest of Q4 that we're currently in, you might all of a sudden feel like time is very short. And like, there's not enough time to run a webinar. I have a question, though. Is it possible to, in this annual planning, to also somehow schedule and plan for tactical or spontaneous webinars? Or how would that, you know, fit into an annual plan? Great question. Yes, you can. You can either build it in or you can allow for it. So you can either build in to say, well, every, I don't know, once a quarter, we allow for one ad hoc, one that we just need to decide on the day, or not on the day, hopefully, but you know, a few weeks before. But you can also just allow for space. And then you can, because you're planning or allowing for it, you're aware of it. And then you can say, well, okay, we have this extra space. Is there something we need to do this month or this quarter to fill a pipeline gap to, you know, address a market shift, whatever it might be. And you can then be more ad hoc about it. Really, the annual planning is really about creating a backbone that you can focus your time on filling, rather than putting it in place in the first place. So if you're doing that at the start of the year, or just before the start of the year, you can do the heavy lifting in one go. And then after that becomes much easier to maintain. Yeah, exactly. And I like the notion of side time to be spontaneous and to do the tactical webinars that, you know, pop up here and there. I really want to hear the one with the lack of audience growth. I think when we talk about webinars, that is a fear that a lot of marketers or producers have this pressure to kind of grow an audience. I would love to hear the story. So it's probably the most commonly asked question I get. How do we get more webinar attendees? You know, we currently have X and we want Y. How do we get that? And the question sometimes comes alongside, you know, do we need to buy leads? Do we need to partner with somebody to do it and get leads through their network? There are various different ways you could conceivably increase your webinar audience. The question, the main question for me always is, well, what value do those additional attendees have? Do they actually bring value? Or are you just spending money to get those additional attendee numbers? Which in this case, that's just a vanity metric then and a very expensive one at that. So the way we look at it is that the most unpopular answer I have to give is there is no silver bullet for this. There is no magic wand that you can wave and all of a sudden you have 100 more attendees or you can grow your audience. But there are tactics you can undertake that do that organically from within your own database. And some of those things are that they're going to be able to get that consistency. And then the other thing is that there is consistency of output, for example. So you don't just run a webinar one week and then, you know, the next one you'll think of in eight or 10 weeks time. And then there's one, two weeks after that. And then there's another 12 weeks to the next one. The audience can't get used to that. And they're just not going to follow you. They're just going, well, okay, you know, if I have to wait maybe two or maybe 12 weeks, I'm going to go somewhere else for that information. So it's really important to get that consistency. And then that quality, the halo of the webinar, that we talked about earlier. And then people will start coming with you. They know, okay, I'm going to attend these webinars because they're valuable. And I know they happen every four weeks. But also when they are scheduled closely together or reasonably closely together, you can bring the audience with you. You know, the ones that liked it, that were in the webinar with you today, you tell them, well, the next one is already scheduled. You can sign up here and it takes place in four weeks time. And we're going to talk about, you know, ABC, which is, you know, leads on from what we spoke about today. They're going to be thinking, right, brilliant. Okay, four weeks. I've got plenty to do in the meantime. I'll get on with my work. But in four weeks time, I'll join again. And that compounds over time. So you'll be able to bring people with you. They will get used to the fact that you have a regular cadence, that the quality is good. And you will start making better use of your database to bring people with you and grow your audience. Because most people have plenty of people in the database. Maybe not as many as they want. But you can utilize those better and bring them more into the webinars that you're running. Exactly. And I think that's such a important, critical question to ask yourself. Why do you want to grow the audience? Because maybe the answer you're looking for is not necessarily to grow your audience, but actually build a second webinar format for a second audience, and then have those run simultaneously or parallel to each other. You're absolutely right. And in fact, what you've just defined there is scalability, right, for a webinar program. If you think about webinars running for the same audience in the same format every four or six weeks, you can run 12 webinars a year. If you think about it as maturity levels of the audience, some are less mature about what they know about you. Some are more mature about what they know about you. They have different content requirements. There's also different buyer personas in your database. There's also different product offerings in your product offering. So all of a sudden, you start scaling out how many webinars you can actually run that still create value. And instead of 12, you're running 48, you're running 96, because you've got that matrix of who you're targeting with what information and when. Yeah, definitely. Now, I think we have time for one more. I'm just having a look at... Yeah, okay, here they are on screen. Okay. What about the one that's actually number 11? Because I don't think we have... We haven't been in that corner yet. The one with the lack of CRM integration. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the audience thinks who's on and listening to this, but for us, the biggest by far, the biggest impact for post-webinar demand generation performance comes from an integration of a webinar platform into CRM and with marketing automation. Because often we look at the performance of a webinar platform over the webinar itself, right? Number of registrants, number of attendees, number of questions, conversion rates. But really, if we stop there, then we aren't doing our jobs as marketers. We need to hand these over to sales and sales need to do something with it. And they need to generate MQLs and SQLs and pipeline and win deals. So once you realize that, internalize that, you can then say, well, how can we do that? We need to get the information into the database. And ideally, not via a CSV file, upload, because that takes time. And you need to do it every time again. And somebody joins on demand. So the integration does that in real time. And the data you can capture with webinars is so rich in terms of behavioral insights. What have they done? How long do they stay? What do they click on? What do they download? What do they ask? Poll questions they answered. All of that is interesting data for salespeople. And if it's surfaced in the CRM system automatically in real time, well, which ones am I going to follow up with today? And for what reason? And in what way? Because there's no point following up with everybody straight away, because they'll probably tell you I'm not ready yet. So go away. But if you have all that information to hand, you can decide, well, out of these 100 attendees we had today, there are 15 that were really engaged and asked the right questions. So I'm going to pick up the phone. And I'm going to offer to answer the question they had, because it didn't get covered on the Q&A, for example. Entirely different conversation than seeing, hey, Amelia, you registered for this webinar, but you didn't attend. Do you want to buy my stuff? No, it's not going to happen. But if I call you and say, hey, Amelia, I saw that you attended the webinar today. You had a question. We didn't quite get around to answering it during the live session. But I just wanted to take a few minutes, if you don't mind, and give you the answer. I would feel very special. Great. Thanks, Lev. Yeah, brilliant. And then at the end of that, you say, is there anything else I can help with? And it just leads to an entirely different conversation. And all that comes from the real-time integration with the CRM system. Of course, you need to surface it right. And all the clarification that you can get and the level of detail in the engagements to really tailor that personalized communication after such a nice touch point that they've signed up, they've taken the time, that you don't just let the audience hang once the webinar is over and it's no longer live. So it'll kind of follow up. Absolutely. To be fair, I need to give Tyson and Alessandro from your team a plug here as well, because we had a conversation the other day with a client of ours, a mutual client of ours. They wanted to integrate with HubSpot. And on the call, which was the initial discovery call almost, the client said, can we not just sort of do it on the call now? And I thought, ooh, maybe prepare a little bit more. And your team was like, yeah, sure, let's do it. And we had an hour's call and 20 minutes was connected up. And after that was just a case of configuring a little bit. So it is incredibly easy. So if you're thinking, oh, this sounds like work, it is actually a lot easier than you think. But the value, as I say, the biggest impact that we see for that sort of post-webinar follow-up and performance comes from that little integration. Definitely. And a little bit of work today might save you tons of work in the future. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Lev, for sharing your lessons. You're welcome. We're officially out of time in your segment of this session. Thank you so much. I want to encourage all the audience members to find Lev on LinkedIn and connect with him. I'm sure that if you grabbed a screenshot of his 12 lessons, he would be more than happy to talk to you about the stories behind his lessons privately on LinkedIn. So please find him there. And I'm sure he can even drop his little LinkedIn profile URL in the chat so you guys can all easily find him. Thank you so much, Lev. And moving on in this session, we are going to be joined by Lopke Biman Remkisch, who has been working with webinars since 2018, which the past three and a half years of her experience has been with Follion. Follion is a MarTech SaaS company that has their headquarter in Amsterdam. So she's been working on a webinar strategy and has continued to kind of evolve it to the point that it's become an essential part of the marketing strategy. So please welcome Lopke to the screen. Hi, Lopke. How are you doing? Hi, everyone. Great to be here, Amelia. Thanks for the intro. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. You're in a little bit of a different time zone than us, aren't you? Yes, that's right. I'm currently in New York, so great that I could make it. This time works very well. It's 10.15 almost for me here. And it's great to be able to join you all online. Perfect. But we're so happy to have you, and I'm glad that we could make this work. I would love for you yourself to also give a little bit of an introduction about webinars at Follion. And please elaborate a little bit on introducing yourself and your role and your department and so on. Great. Thank you. Thank you for that. So I've been part of the customer marketing team at Follion. My latest title was community marketing manager. And besides webinars, I was also responsible for small prospect dinners, conferences, the customer advisory board, among other things. But the main thing I've been doing from when I joined Follion until actually when I left last week has been webinars. So the webinar platform 23 was already with Follion. There had been some experimentation. But then once I joined, we just experimented a lot to figure out what formats resonated with our audience, what topics, and then to really grow the volume of webinars and the purpose of those webinars. And we realized that webinars do work for our audience. And so over the past three and a half years, they've been a very regular, yeah, at least a monthly thing for me. And a little bit about my personal life. I am indeed in New York. So I'm in the process together with my husband and 14-month-old to relocate here, which is an exciting next step for us. And we were previously based in Amsterdam. And my background, besides webinars, I've lived around the world. So in different countries, continents. And yeah, I'm very excited to be working in SaaS. B2B really fits me well. And yeah, I'll be looking for a new opportunity out of New York very shortly. But happy to share my experience with you all here. We're very excited to have you. You've spoken at some of our events previously. It's very fun for us to follow your webinar journey. So I'm excited to see what's up next. Now, you have been working, as you said, with webinars and Follyoon for the past three to five years. Can you elaborate a little bit on what you guys were doing with webinars in previous years and what you guys have been experimenting with for 2025? And yeah, why did you guys choose to kind of shake things up a bit? Yeah. So when we initially started, we did a lot of different webinars. And I was more focused on customer education rather than customer marketing. And we noticed that educational webinars where we showed our customers to really use our platform resonated a lot. We have a large designer customer base, and they've really resonated and joined webinars about design topics. So just for context, Follyoon is a content creation platform for engaging digital HTML5-based content. But yeah, so we kind of got to a point where we did a monthly webinar. And then quarterly, we did big product update webinars. So those were the two formats, the online classrooms, which we did monthly, and then the quarterly product update webinars. That worked really well. And we've done that for multiple years. And then we had the format down. And then I went on maternity leave the second half last year. And when we got back, or when I got back, the organization had changed. And there was a need for, instead of very heavily focusing on reporting on engagement survey results, to be more commercially focused. So yes, we always try to get our leads and get those into HubSpot, as Lev was also saying. However, from just our reporting cadence, we were much more engagement metrics focused, like polls, questions, attendance, percentage of people that registered versus show up. We had a really high above 40, which is a healthy percentage. So we were happy about that, happy about the format. And then, yeah, we kind of had to, by the ask of the organization, drive more leads, be more expansion focused. So that kind of was the big trigger to experiment again in 2025 with the whole webinar program and get it to that next level where we could actually influence the expansion pipeline. Yeah, exactly. And I'm sure that it's an interesting experience for you as well to kind of step away from webinars, come back, and see how the need has changed. I think it's great that you can have an agile approach when it comes to webinars and that you're able to adapt your programs based on what the audience wants. I think we talk about that a lot, but also based on what the company wants, because those are some of your most important stakeholders. Yeah, that's right. And maybe just in terms of context, what really did it for us that we had to change, because the program was going well for that point of time. And also the business was indeed happy with the results at the time. Like we hadn't previously engaged such large amounts of our customers at once in, of course, this beautiful one-to-many communication method. And we had the promotion down, the follow-up down. And then also based on having kind of sensed what it could do and having seen a couple of expansion deals that came out of it, the company was like, okay, more is possible in that area. And at the time, like, I'm not sure if everyone in the audience is in SaaS, but for a little bit of background, 2024, end of 2023 was a, you know, a lot was happening in the tech space. Companies were laying off employees. And it was kind of like a shakeup. And at Folian, there haven't been rounds of layoffs, but they were very aware that, you know, if you don't do well as a business, it may have to come to that. So yeah, leadership, very righteously so, was just asking for why are we doing what we do and what results, what ROI is this getting in the door? I see. And I mean, of course, external factors influence what we do in marketing all the time and what budgets we have to work with and what the decision makers are focusing on. That's so interesting. When you chose to, yeah, like optimize your approach, what was important at the time to, you know, focus on? You mean the changes that we've been making this year? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So definitely quality became, remained a very important piece. And what we have done there is instead of, we used to do everything live and we've never had any big, big issues with live. However, we decided to pre-record as if it was live to have the ability to have a little bit of editing and making sure the story really hit the points we wanted it to hit. So that's one of the things we kind of experimented with and changed over the course of this year. Also, we really doubled down on the frequency to see if we do more webinars. Can we drive more leads? So we used to do a monthly webinar, then we changed to the frequency to do one every other week. And definitely focusing on commercial outcome instead of just the engagement with the attendees. So it did indeed result, again, as per Lev's presentation, that we didn't reach all our customers with every webinar. It became a little bit more segmented. So with the planning of topics, we didn't quite look or only look at what would everyone be interested in to drive as high as possible amount of registrations. We were very happy with smaller webinars, so long as we had the right audience in there and we would be talking about the right topic. And that helped us get those really specific leads in the door. And this did definitely include involving more teams. So on the one hand, yes, you want to have the topics. Yes, you want to have the leads. Yes, you want to have the integration so they get into the system. However, the collaboration with the other team, so it's webinars, well done, is a very big cross-departmental movement, which any fantastic webinar campaign in general should be, because sales need to know. Sales enablement needs to know. The account managers need to know. The customer success managers need to know. The managers need to promote it to their right audience. I think that the last point is the one that I personally have struggled with the most, to really nail that down. And it starts, again, with the leadership wanting the webinars for a specific outcome. If they prioritize it, it gets done. And the leads get followed up. Exactly. And that's very interesting. I think you really came with some interesting experiments. I wanted to ask you, though, about the prerecorded webinars. Have you had any audience feedback or any reactions to this? Can the audience tell? Yeah, the interesting thing is that I don't fully think our audience cares. We haven't asked them, though. But in some webinars, we say it's prerecorded and we're attending live in the chat. So there's always live chat. And in other instances, we don't say it. So long as their questions get answered, they get followed up with, and they get the information they're looking for. So long as it's engaging and fun and not too much, it's not too much edited. Like you're not, you don't get the sense you're looking at, you know, an hour marketing commercial. It's still very valuable content and engaging. So to be frank, I don't think our audience had a big opinion about it. Interesting. I think the reason I'm asking is because I've heard multiple people kind of curious about this, but they're, I think, too afraid of the effects it will have on the audience or, yeah, how it will feel in a live setting. So thank you for elaborating. We are recording it as if it's live. So it kind of feels the same as like, for example, this session would feel, which is live. It does add another layer to your preparation. So it doesn't mean your preparation time needs to be longer per se, but rather than, let's say, starting preparing live, you do add the recording, editing, and then live. So it does, you know, add the recording, editing, and then the broadcasting at live to your process. Yeah. So it's a little. I'm not sure on everyone's end, but you get kind of cut out. So I can't hear you anymore. I mean, I don't hear you yet. Let me see. Can you hear me now? Yes. So I just had one more question that was, have you had any tips for others that are considering to try different things and become result driven in the way you have? Do you have any tips for them? Yeah, I definitely think the better your plan at the beginning, so a project plan where others are being bought into with stakeholder management, with a clear outcome, it helps everyone focus. It helps everyone involved know what to do and why. Some people kind of get allergies when they hear the word project plan because they just think it's too much admin. In my experience, whenever you have a proper plan at the start, it just speeds things along. It makes everything more agile. So definitely plan. Definitely manage your stakeholders well and inform everyone consistently. And when I say experimenting, it's never about it's it's never for the sake of experimenting or it's never for it. It's kind of just about optimizing and continue to do better. But don't forget the skills that you have in house. Just leverage them. One webinar team is different from another webinar team. So kind of figure out for your team and for your setting and of course, for your goal, what is an experiment that you would be willing to run? Such a great tip. Hold on. I need to take my earpiece out so I can't hear myself. Double. I'm back. I'm hearing. I think that's such a great tip for to make sure that it's always relevant to your overall strategy. And I think that's a very nice place to end it because we are actually at the three minute mark before wrapping up. So I would actually love to take this opportunity to say thank you so much to both of our speakers. I'm sure the same goes for you. Look here on the side. I'm sure the same goes for look at that. If you want to connect with her on LinkedIn, listen to more of her. Very many insights from working with webinars for many years. You can connect with her on social media. I can see that Lev has been kind enough to share his LinkedIn link in the chat with us. Thank you so much for that. Lev, is there any last comments or last remarks? Lev, do you have anything you want to add? Anything you want to round off on today? Well, I mean, I love what Lopka shared because it all rings really, really true. And I think perhaps the one thing that wasn't on my slide, which I think is the underlying lesson of all webinars is people and technology is never 100% reliable, right? So prepare for the worst and expect the best. But both as organizers, stakeholders, contributors and audience members, I think we always have to still remember there is humans behind everything. And we need to make allowances because it's the whole glass houses thing, isn't it? We never get everything right. Nobody else does. So if something sometimes doesn't work out, isn't as good or as technically correct, whatever, it doesn't really matter. What we're here for is information and connecting. So my lesson for life in general is it's never 100%. Thank you for that, Lev. Thank you so much for being with us. Lopka, same to you. Any last goodbyes or any last remarks you want to bring to the audience? Well, it's been great to be here at the Webinar Days 2025. And maybe my final thought is it does need to be fun. I have experience when I try to collaborate with others in the organization that weren't as experienced that they would be like, oh, no, no, no, no. Webinars aren't for me. And just kind of allowing them to get involved little by little. Then kind of grew their enthusiasm to want to even be a speaker and to want to be involved in those multiple steps. So keep it fun. It doesn't need to be a forced big activity. Thank you both so much for your wonderful insights. And thank you for sharing your webinar lessons with us today. I'm going to send you off to your next project. And I'll see you guys in the next webinar room. Bye. Thank you guys so much for joining. Bye. Thank you. Now, that concludes our day two of Webinar Days 2025. So I'm very excited to see all of you back here tomorrow at 3 p.m. Central European time for the agenda tomorrow, which is going to be the last day of Webinar Days 2025. We have a session on State of Webinars Report 2026. It's going to be a very interesting data sessions with all the benchmarks you need to be ready for the year of 2026, followed by a very dynamic data-driven webinar session with Kelly Hartrell. Now, if you still want to participate in the Webinar Days, sorry, in the State of Webinar Report, we still have a survey running. So I'll link that in the chat and you can fill it out before tomorrow and you can still be part of influencing the data and the results. As always, you know that Webinar Days is organized by 23. And if you want to learn more about what's happening on the forefront of video marketing and webinars, you need to check out the 23 Summit. So I'll drop you a link in the chat for that as well, just so you can have a little bit of a look on some of the incredible highlights from the 23 Summit 2025. And if you can already feel like this is just the event for you, then you can sign up now to get notified about 2026. And as always, don't worry, you can catch all the sessions on demand, maybe for the last year, who knows? And they will be shared with you once Webinar Days is concluded. So feel free to share it with a team member or a colleague. And big thanks to all of our speakers who have shared their insights and learnings with us today. And I'll see you back here tomorrow at 3pm. Bye, everyone.