Session: Video Budget

Amazing, amazing, right. So, afternoon, welcome. I hope you're having an enjoyable summit so far. And we're very much looking forward to sharing some thoughts on video budget. So, first off, I'd just like to introduce both my joint panelists today. Kristjan and Tapio. And Kristjan has a wealth of experience across production and directing, storytelling, photography, and is currently one of the senior directors at VideoBird. Tapio cut his teeth at MTV many, many years ago. He then went on to set up his own agency. That agency was then in due course, it was bought. And what that's fascinating to demonstrate is just the importance of this video agency space. And that it's being recognized by large companies such as Sanoma, where he is now director. And it really demonstrates how this landscape is starting to come together and there's real momentum behind it. So, why are we talking about budgets? This isn't an accountancy seminar. This isn't an accountancy summit. But the reality is that we're coming up to account setting season. This is when most businesses start to think about how much money they should be allocating for their next year. And it is indeed the right time that we should be talking about these budgets. But we're also talking about it because there are budget blind spots. And it's these blind spots that we want to tap into. Because if we can start to unpack these blind spots, we can then enable everyone to have the right discussions with CMOs. And change makers can then start to have those correct organizations. They can have those correct conversations. And you can then do more of the things that you want to do. And what we mean by that, effectively, is you're able to then make more video. So, what I'm going to do is dig into the Gartner study. And at this point, I just want to be clear, this isn't about a teardown of the Gartner CMO survey. It's absolutely not that. But I'd really like to kind of explore each of the different areas of the Gartner study. And just think about what's included and what is not included in those areas. And I think what you'll end up finding is that if you unpack it, you can really start to see that video isn't necessarily being properly represented. So, let's just start off in this kind of first quadrant with marketing technology. So, what's interesting about this area is that the area that we are in around video software is most likely not included in this. And similarly, there are other areas that aren't included in this. If you think about, for instance, a CRM system, or you think about a CDP, is this actually going to sit within the CMO's budget? It probably isn't, is the reality. And now that could be for lots of different reasons. It could be because of procurement. It could be because of a bundling package of some description. And that might be why it's not put in there. And equally, for CRM as an example, it will cover different departments. So, it won't just be relevant for the marketing department. But in immediate, you then see, well, okay, this isn't capturing all aspects of video. And we estimate that the video technology sector is about 1% to 2% in this area. And given the importance of video and the fact that it really represents up to 50% of engagement, there's an extraordinary low percentage for it to be to have within this, effectively, marketing technology spend. If we then start to look at paid media. Now, this covers a huge amount of things, obviously. We've got booths outside, as an example. That, technically, is paid media. So, it will be covered in a paid media budget such as this. And then, it is not unusual for a creative cost to be folded into this area, too. I mean, if we even go back in time, over, I think, almost like 160 years, in advertising, it was standard practice for creative to be bundled in with media. And, I mean, I think there's a whole story around that, which is not one for right now, about what that has done to advertising and their business models. But you can see it even today. If you are interested in Spotify, I know that's a much more kind of B2C area. But you'll find that the creative costs are bundled in similarly with media there. Then, moving towards labor. You know, the people on the ground in the business. Now, how often would a marketing organization just simply capture the hours against a project? Or is it just down to an FTE? It's most likely that within organizations, they think about, okay, in this team, we've got five FTEs. And, amongst those five FTEs, maybe we have three projects, four projects apiece. But, actually, the granularity of going into those projects isn't necessarily done. And, the implication of that is really quite simple, which is that, and we've all had an experience of it, a project doesn't go fantastically well. For whatever reason, it goes a little bit off track. And, I have three projects. And, now, one of those projects starts to just eat up all my time, all my time, all my time. That isn't captured in any shape or form. I'm just the FTE. And, then, that cost, that labor cost isn't captured. And, I think an agency will, you know, agencies never know full well the cost of this because they have that classic, you know, kind of home run mentality. You've got to get that strike, that first strike. Otherwise, actually, your profitability starts to descend pretty rapidly. So, this, again, within labor, what we're saying is, yeah, very hard to really pinpoint the amount of budget that video project is actually taking up. And, then, you go into agency services and agencies and services. And, it's a similar story to degree there. I mean, in some instances, obviously, you'll get a clear delineation between, okay, that is the agency and that's the cost there. And, then, you'll get this is the production. And, so, you might get that level of transparency. But, similarly, you might, that all might be bundled together as well. That's not unusual. That does happen. And, then, thinking a little bit outside of that, and just in the realm of production and agency as well, what, for instance, if a business has built its own studio and it's got its own gear, it's got its own lighting, where is this captured? It's probably captured in some form of overhead because it's, well, it's an overhead cost. It's a room. So, where's that in the video budget? It's not there. So, as I say, this absolutely, and I look into the camera and I say, it was not designed initially to perform to be a takedown of Gardner's survey. It was not. It is just to really just expand on it and just look at it interrogated from our point of view in this arena and just think, okay, how much clarity does this give? And, actually, when you start to unpick it, what you start to think and realize is, well, it gives broad strokes perspectives. But, actually, video budget is much more complex. And, this is a, you know, you'll recognize a, classic organizational structure. It's an organogram. It's not going to set the world on fire. But, there's something actually incredibly important about just looking at this for one moment. And, this is just one example in a country of an org chart, right? And, I'm going to stand back so I just point a little bit so everyone can see. But, you know, you've got your kind of key departments up at the top. And, each of those departments will have some form of budget. And, if you then just go on down, you kind of see that the type of communication that they want to do and the things that they want to do. And, underneath that, I've got in green their kind of video. Okay. Now, that, you know, arguably is actually quite simple. Okay. I know they're doing video. But, I don't think it's actually as clear cut as that. What you'll effectively find is that they know that they've got that overall budget. And, that will sit up at the sales, marketing, corp comms, internal comms. And, that's where that sits. And, so, when you look at this, and then that goes back up to the CMO, there's another level of complication that's added. And, dare I say it. Sorry, one second. I'm just going to stay on this one last minute. If you then multiply that out by countries, you get another bigger problem. And, I'll just give a live example of that. Sorry, it's not live. It's an example of that. Years ago, I worked with a major pharmaceutical across the globe. And, we would share with them every year the amount of money that they saved by reusing content from one market to another. And, they had absolutely no idea about this whatsoever. So, in their budgets, as far as they were concerned, they were spending a certain amount of money and they were remaking films. They were duplicating films. And, we're saying, no, absolutely, we're not. You're not. We are taking care of that. We're making sure we take this and we put it there and we redo this and this. But, at the senior budget level, that was totally misunderstood. And, that is just pure play video. The business thinking they were spending up to, in any given instance, 400,000 euros more. And, so, again, it just demonstrates that you have a large issue there within organizations about understanding the specificity. And, so, that obviously creates risks. I mean, one very simple risk is that you overspend and you've got no clear concept of your ROI. Or, you equally, and if not worse, you actually start to underspend. So, you aren't actually putting the money behind the things that you should, which is clearly a concern. Content duplication, I've just touched upon. If you've got a siloed, disparate company that doesn't understand what's being done in different places, specifically different countries, you have that issue. Without a shadow of a doubt, it demonstrates that there's going to be an issue about poor strategic planning. And, planning will, for the following year, will suffer because you don't know how much money you should be putting behind things. And, you actually, organization, again, you will end up saying, you know, whilst this isn't strictly financial, but these are implications, nonetheless, of a lack of understanding and full clarity on the budget is you'll start to see potentially a fragmented brand experience because the business doesn't know what it's doing in certain places with regard to video. And, therefore, that brand experience isn't consistent. And, at the end of the day, what does that mean? Well, if the chickens come home to roost, you'll have accountability issues because you don't know actually what you're doing and what you're spending. So, that hopefully gives a bit of a perspective of why this is a grey area and why this should matter to us so much. And, when video is the most important medium, and you'll hear me, when I give other discussions at this summit again and again, talk about this and probably show you these similar numbers. When it is the most important medium, it is incredibly dangerous that we aren't thinking about video budget as carefully as this. And, just taking these numbers, you know, when video is, when 40% more dwell time happens when you have video on your website, it demonstrates, again, the importance of video. When it's entertaining, it entertains 85% more than other mediums. And, that really matters. So, with all that in mind, at TwentyThree, it's been really clear to us that we need to consider and think about video budget in a very different way. And, we always want to try and make it easier and better for our customers and our partners to navigate this area. So, we have produced a series of estimators and tools which sit within our video accelerator, one of which being the video budget estimator. And, we built this quite simply to help change makers and people like you shine a light on budget and also be able to have the right discussions. Have the right discussions to be able to say to a CMO, well, actually, this is the amount of money that we think you're spending. And, therefore, we think you should be spending more. It isn't proportionate to the efficacy that you get. It becomes an argument to say, actually, you know, we should be thinking further and more about video agencies and getting greater investment. So, I have not been the power behind this. So, at this point, I'd like to welcome on stage Aridas, who has pioneered this and built this. And so, he's going to give a little bit of a demo on some numbers here that we'll put through the calculators. You can see it kind of working in real time. And, we can interrogate a little bit. And then, following that, we'll then have a little bit of a discussion about budget and video budget, the pitfalls, the issues, and we'll take it from there. So, Aridas, please welcome Aridas on stage. Hello, everybody. I'm Aridas, and I build a website here at TwentyThree. And, yeah, I'll be doing a lot of doing a demo of a video budget estimator. So, if you go to our website and go to resources, under tools, you'll find the video budget estimator. So, for this one here, we will assume a video mature organization, let's say, medium size. And, by the way, Dan, as I run through this estimator, feel free to interrupt me and connect to what great things you've been saying so far, right? Thank you. I will do. Okay. So, first thing, let's say we are producing 40 videos per month. And, video staff, this is the full-time employees that are dedicated to making video in your organization. So, that's obviously your video producers, but also video marketeers, and et cetera. So, let's say we have four video staff. Process and talent, this is an interesting one, because apart from the marketing team and the video staff, we also involve other people. So, for example, the head of departments, the client directors, maybe even your CEO and your CTO, they all show up on camera, right? And, they all spend hours practicing, rehearsing, and even putting up makeup, right? So, yeah. No, but that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. I think it's very easy to overlook all those hours that go into, and we were just having a panel discussion. One of the questions was, how do you make your audience comfortable? And, how do you make your presenter comfortable when they are in front of the camera? And, practice is one of those things. And so, it can easily be overlooked, the hours that are put in in preparation, actually rehearsing to get these videos and webinars right. Yes. So, let's say, and it could also be multiple people, right? Two or three people in a video. So, let's say, on average, we spend 12 of these talent hours on videos that are not from the video team. Okay. Next up is the external production costs. And, these are the video agencies that Dan was talking about. And, let's say, we're spending, and that's yearly, we're spending 400,000 euros yearly on external costs, video agencies, and video producers. Okay. And, next, we got a video software spend. So, this is the video tooling that we're using to make our videos and enable ourselves to make videos. And, let's say, we're spending 30,000 euros per year on our video tools. And, finally, we got the promotion budget. So, this is the amount of money we spend on each video. Let's put in, let's say, we spend 200 euros per video. And, I will click calculate right now. And, then, feel free to take over when you want to talk, expand the results. But, yes, what we get here is we get our real video budget over here. Yeah. And, down below, we get the proportion breakdown of how does it build up. Exactly. And, so, I mean, I think one of the great things about this calculator is you can kind of, you can use it as a tool to degree to just work out, okay, is this the kind of error I'd be expecting? And, I'll just pick out one particular example, really. I mean, well, two. Software spend, that's ridiculously low. That should be hard. But, it'll be on external production costs. So, take that as an example. We've got 23.7 there. A lot of companies will think, okay, well, we don't, we try and benchmark that that is 11% of media budget or something like that. There might be some ratios that they were. So, it's thinking, it helps you analyze what the budget is looking like in a sphere like that. But, I think that it's also the thing, right, that we spend a lot of time on product and talent. Yeah. And, potentially, if we increase the amount of spending on tools, we might increase the ROI because now the people can actually do videos faster, better, and more scalable. Exactly. Exactly that. So, this, so, just to finish, and so we can move on to the conversation. This, it's on our website. As Airidas said, you'll find it under tools. Please do play with it. Have a look at it. And, just, and you'll also get a downloaded report as well that will break it down in a little bit further detail. But, it gives you a really good steer on how you could understand the budget a little bit further. It looks like there's a, we're about to go into panel discussion, but I'm absolutely, we can take a, so, I mean, the music and usage you would put under the, effectively. I mean, it's a good point. You could also have, maybe, even a different feel for that. I mean, you're right. We can't capture process and talent. I mean, I think from a, you know, what we experience usually in the webinar space is that there, yes, there might be music, and it would be potentially just somewhat like license-free. So, within this particular category, it isn't as, I mean, and I can understand in certain instances music can be a huge, huge cost. And, I get that. This looks to really just focus on the area of you've got your core talent within the building, what they're spending in terms of time. And, I think as we evolve these calculators and there are others, and the need is, the need comes for things like that, and that's actually things that we could start to incorporate to try and understand, actually, is that the right amount? I guess there's a whole different discussion about the return on investment of the kind of track you've used, and if you use a very expensive one, and, you know, you're using a, if you're a Cadbury's, I know that's a very strange example, but they obviously use hugely popular songs in their work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a brilliant way of widening that point, because actually my assumption was, oh, licensing fees, it's going to cost you so much money. But, actually, sorry, the hours, utterly, and how many... Absolutely, and from experience, it is the most painful part of a process, and it often happens last. So, to a degree, there's a limited amount of time, but nonetheless, it will be fed into the system early, and you can burn so many hours, and there'll be departments in buildings that will spend, you know, huge amounts of time on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you for that bill and suggestion. I think it winds out what we can do there. So, Airidas, an applause for Airidas for coming along and giving us a demo. Thank you so much. The absolute power behind this tool. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Dan. Thank you. So, at this point, we're going to talk about what we've just, what I've just talked about, and what I would like to hear is some reflections, and then let's dig into a couple of questions. So, who would like to just give some first thoughts on this area, the obstacles that exist and we face? Yeah. So, I actually tried yesterday the budget estimator, and I think it gives nice score, but like you said, that of course, there's things like studio rents or music, but anyway, because at least in that estimator, they pay quite well for video creators. That's a good thing. So, if our client uses that, I'm good to go with that budget because there's a little bit extra, I think. So, yeah. But of course, there's always millions of things that are not included. Yeah. I'd like to reflect on your point, sir, which was great, but expand it a little bit. You focused in on music, which can be one of those hidden costs. I mean, one of the things that you want to talk about, what are the hidden pitfalls? What are the hidden costs? Yeah. Searching for music, I can spend days on Epidemic just scrolling through, looking for stuff, but the same applies for any assets that you're looking for, whether you're looking for stock images or stock video, or even before you're even in production, mood boarding and the whole creative process, so many hours go into research and searching for assets, some of them that you're never going to use, some of them that you're just going to use in a pitch deck, and all those hours are really easily overlooked. Absolutely, to your point, yes, that's a massive one. And as a content maker, it's very hard to convince your client that those hours are necessary and that they're actually going to be used. So, they're really difficult to budget from the people that are actually going to be doing that, spending those hours. I don't know what the answer is. I mean, I wish we could say, look, it's going to take this many hours to do that research, but it's hard to line item those out. It is hard to line item those out, but I think what it then comes back to, and I guess is really kind of the big thrust here, is that businesses need to start looking at video as, I mean, and I get on a high horse about this, it's like, there used to be media strategies and media budgets and this and that, and it's like, well, there's a video budget. I mean, it's all about video. I mean, what part of the conversation have you missed out on to not know that video is so, it's proliferating everything, that really it just comes down to that's where you should be thinking about. Budget and how to have those discussions and how to move companies to be thinking, okay, I'm going to specifically allocate against that and then pigeonhole that amount of money in order to safeguard it and to then actually see that return on investment. I think that's the main discussion is the ROI. Yeah. Clients are often, oh, that's expensive. And I don't think expensive is the right word. Is it a lot of money or does your brain think, oh, 50,000 euros is a lot of money? Sure, your brain thinks that's a lot of money. It sounds like a lot of money. Is it expensive? I mean, if we go back to those numbers that you were showing, the engagement, how much it means, how much of your screen real estate is video. You know, somebody was mentioning in another talk that, you know, 40% of the pixels on your website are video content. Yeah, that was our founder over there. Yeah, you said that this morning, right? So something stuck. And that's important, but that should be the conversation. It shouldn't be about hours and about how expensive it is to make it, but it should be relative. How much are we spending on video content in a year versus how important that is to our customers, to our users, to the people that visit our websites that go on our social media and all that. And I think as producers, it'd be much easier to work with those bigger year budgets. And I think that's a conversation as well. Yeah, I think that's fair. Whether they are opportunistic in their, okay, quarterly budget and we'll allocate this amount actually versus planning that year. And Tapio, how do you find this in terms of managing budgets with your clients? And do you see an annual budget or is it all project by project? It's mostly project based. And I think this video budget thing is a little bit hard. Like video marketing budget could be one thing, but like I work in big corporate and of course we create video for so many people. So many different users, internal onboarding and et cetera. So there can't be like one video budget, but the video marketing budget there could be. And I think even in that case, I think it would be more beneficial that where you have different use cases for video in your marketing funnel or in different departments, that at least the people know what they're doing. They use, you share the knowledge, you set the processes, you share the agencies who you work with. I think the budgeting part, it doesn't have to be the same for everyone. But yeah, I think that's like the most important thing in that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So there are a couple of kind of areas that I think that this talk kind of helps stimulate that I kind of want us to, want to kind of pick at it a little bit. But how can we pick it? Against companies effectively to help them think more about the way they should focus on a video budget. What tools do we have to highlight to them? Okay, this is an important area. This is what you should be thinking about. And this is how you should be thinking about it. How can it almost as a collective voice, what can we do? All of us together. Yeah. Big banners going out on the streets, a thousand, a million man march. Clients give us more video budget. I don't know how. Yeah. I think that what we try and do at VideoBird is we try and show our clients that if you commit to working with us for an extended period of time, we can produce more bang for your buck. Because we can plan, we can buy in things that we need. We can be more efficient. I mean, we got a really good, a really nice compliment from one of our biggest clients just a couple of weeks ago who said, in the past couple of years that we've been working with you, I've been able to I hate to say it, but ditch three other agencies and spend less money. So you're providing the same amount or more content that I was creating with these three other agencies because they were spread out. But now we're doing it with you in-house. And so he's made a huge saving on his budget. And I think looking at it from that perspective. So zooming out rather than project by project can help. I'm not saying that's the answer, but for us, trying to move towards that, it helps us plan. It helps us just know that we've got, you know, bottom line at the end of the year. But it also helps us just be more efficient in how much content we create for them. So that would help us if we can get that. And unfortunately, at least for us, it's client. Every client, you just have to educate them. Like open the budgets so they understand why these five videos might cost only this little and this one video might cost because of many locations, because of many shooting days. Talent. Because of talent. And okay. So I will always try to tell that, okay, if you can shoot in series, if you can shoot like seven videos in one day, it's much cheaper than to shoot seven videos in seven days in seven locations. And usually they get it very fast. But it's like you have to educate them. But also what's interesting about that is, it's like that's a strategic approach to just the production. And maybe part of the point here is that the strategy still needs to be elevated. The video is, I mean, you know, I've gone about numbers. Numbers are really important. But making video strategy just second nature. And the minute you, because I think if we kind of reverse, what's the digital budget? Well, that probably would be quite defined. You would have had a digital budget. I mean, yes, there might be video in that. But actually it's defined as an area in a budget sheet. And that department would know, okay, this is what it is and this is what it's costing me. And what do they have in common? There was a digital strategy. There was a SoMe strategy. But without video strategy, it doesn't in some way, it doesn't have the gravitas to demand its own budget. Might be a reason why this is happening. Is it also because they, because from their perspective, video is just a tool within those strategies? I think so. And we need to get it out of just being a tool into being a universe of its own. Absolutely. I think there's something incredibly true in that. And only, I don't know, very recently, I was in a meeting and I think reflecting back on it, failing miserably, actually. Good to talk about the failure. Yes. I'm sitting in a very comfortable chair. This feels like therapy now, actually. But how did it make you feel? Well, I reflected. I reflected on myself. But what it was, was I was talking to a large organization that had a transformation department. And I was talking about video and talking about the summit and why they should be here. And they were saying, oh, if it's a summit, you're video, right? Well, you talk to them. And the reason I failed is because I was talking to, the transformation department. And I wasn't landing the point that video is a massive piece of transformation. And without that thinking that it's a massive piece of transformation, the strategic rigor will not come with it. And then, if the strategic rigor doesn't come with it, the budget rigor doesn't come with it. I think is the way you kind of follow through that logic. So, you know, and that's, that generally, you know, it's a learning. Okay, then how, a real problem, okay, so how do I reframe that conversation and hit it in a different way? Without kind of being so rude, but like. Without educating them in a very forceful and demanding way. I have been selling and trying to sell. I have actually sold a couple of video strategies for a few years ago. But I find it also complicated because, of course, video is also part of digital marketing or social marketing and whatever. So, you should have the focus a little bit more like maybe your talk to leadership video strategy or whatever, including podcasts and webinars or social. So, I think when you talk a large like video strategy, it's, of course, bigger part of digital marketing and social strategy. The bigger part of that is nowadays video. But it's a little bit hard to talk about of all. The areas in one video strategy, you have to a little bit narrow it, focus, at least from my point of view, to make it worthwhile. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's an unfortunate reality that it still does fall under slightly different buckets at this point, isn't it? Which is something we'll have to navigate. Now, sorry. Although, when you explain to a client, we can send you this bundle. Yeah. We can send you this webinar. This podcast, a bunch of TikTok videos. Yeah. And a hero video and this long-form documentary. We can do all this as a bundle package and we can do it for this price. Yeah. That does, can make them go, well, that's interesting. And that's almost a video strategy. Yeah. But hidden in just us trying to sell our services. True. But we are trying to sort of sell a whole year's worth of stuff. And the various stuff that we're trying to sell. Yeah. Is part of different silos that they have. Yeah. So, if you frame it in that way, is we can do all of this stuff. And this is going to be your price for the year. Yeah. That suddenly then clicks to, oh, even though you're not calling it a video strategy. Yeah. So, that works for us sometimes with some clients. And yeah. That's interesting. Very interesting. It's just a different way. Like you were saying, it's just a different way of framing it. Absolutely. Maybe not the right way, but. No, but it's. Worth trying. It's worth trying. Yeah, yeah. It all builds. Now, we have just two to three minutes left. And just wanted to open up. The floor to any final thoughts or questions that you might have. Or comments that you want to make. Or reflections. Otherwise, we probably will just close down the conversation. But just if I can. If there are any hands that got anything that they might want to say. This either means we were really boring. Or we covered all the bases. So, one of the two. The latter. I mean. What do you think it was? That? Yes. I have a question. Hello. Hi. Hello. I am in a global branding function. Yeah. And we are sort of the people carrying in systems for all the markets to work on. Yeah. Being on brand. Creating a lot of great content. I think one of the issues is that often the video maturity and the appreciation of video metrics. Yeah. Sits in a very different part of the organization than the people actually deciding on the budget. So, my question is. Are there any levers to. Where we don't talk engagement. Where we don't talk sort of the video metrics that we all know and love. Yeah. But more like industry standards. What are the competitors doing? Do we have those benchmarks from similar industries to help us sell in this. Yeah. More video basically. Yeah. I'm going to hand over my panel. I have no idea. I wish we did. That's really. I mean. Somebody should. Somebody should build that. That's. But actually. That's like one of the best sales tactics. To show your competitors doing video. So, you should do. Yeah. But I don't know. Any database or something. Like where you would easily find those. Yeah. And I think on the data point. The thing I. To be frank. Find slightly frustrating about the data sets. Is that. Certainly in the arena that we're in. In the B2B space. And video. It isn't. Yes. We're very proud of the data that we have. And the way. Where it's captured. But actually. You take video. At a more kind of. A slightly higher level. And actually. It's hard to find concrete data. I don't think it's given the focus. Same kind of focus. As it is in the B2C space. No. In B2B. We've got it. And we can. We can absolutely talk about engagement. And ideas like that. But actually. Is there. Are there clear benchmarks. Within. In B2B. In video. I've struggled. To find as many as I want. So I. So. I guess the answer to your question is. We feel your pain. Really. And it's a very valid point. And. It is. Forums like this. Where. It's generally good to talk about this. To realize that actually. You aren't alone. And it is. It's a. It's a collective. Issue. And as. Change makers. And pioneers in this area. That's the kind of thing. That we should. Always be thinking about. And focusing on. And on that. Actually. I think we probably. Will wrap up. So thank you. And thank you everyone. And to my panel. Yeah.