World of Influencers and Innovators

Welcome everybody. Welcome everybody. Yeah, welcome. So this panel really is about, as Steve said, about influencers. And we've got three very interesting speakers. And if I can ask the speakers please to come to the floor. And basically, they represent, I think, some of the biggest companies in Holland, some of the smallest, and then somebody who's got a role to play in Dutch society. Please take a seat, guys, for now. But what I want to do with this panel is not to make it a traditional panel. I'd like to make an offer to you all is that rather than have these panels where it's monopolised by the speaker and you don't I'd like to give you the chance to ask all the questions that you want to really ask. So I've spoken to each of you before. You happy to answer any question? Yeah? See, this is your opportunity to ask any question you want. Okay? Secondly is to participate. So if we might ask a few votes on your views on things. So will you also be willing to participate that way? Yes. Thank you. Good. So what we're going to do is, can you lie over here? Can you come over here, please, and meet some of your colleagues so we can all be in one general area? And as you do it, can you greet them in a traditional Dutch way and go and sit next to somebody you really want to sit next to? Please, hurry up. Okay, so the suggestion is what we'll do is we're going to start first of all and give each panelist two minutes to bring to life their story. So I'm here to learn as well, yeah? So I thought that this company was the biggest flag carrier, that this company was electric taxis full of people over 50 years old. I didn't know there was more to it. And also I thought you were an incubator. Yeah, so could you just bring to life in two minutes each what your company is? Okay. My name is Sigrid Johansson. I'm director of Startup Delta. Startup Delta is an initiative I run together with Neelie Kroes, former vice president of the European Commission for the Digital Agenda. What we do or what we've done over the last one and a half years is put the Netherlands on the global map as a very attractive startup ecosystem. We've done that by first of all with our strategy linking up. So we're linking up all the Dutch hubs from Amsterdam to Eindhoven to you name it together, that they work together, share technology, share agendas, share their contacts. We also link them up with the main hubs, also via Neelie's contacts anywhere in the world, from San Francisco to Tel Aviv. The second part is changing the system. As we all know, the system was never made for startups. If you look at regulation, fiscal incentives, how corporates work together with startups. So on that level, we're trying to make the change with all the different stakeholders from the corporates to universities, regulation. And the third one is creating impact. So together with these stakeholders, we make them responsible so they create the change themselves. The effect we've had in one and a half years is we're now out of nothing number four on the European ecosystem map and number 19 globally. We're so popular apparently that people want us to continue. Neelie and I won't continue, but Constantijn van Oranje has announced last week that he'll take over from us and his goal is by 2020 that the Netherlands will be number five on the global map. Okay, thank you, Siegfried. Thank you. So my name is Charlie Schmidt. I am VP for digital at Air France and KNM. That means I oversee our website, our apps and our social media activities. And within the Netherlands, KNM is quite well known and Air France is well known in France. But outside our home countries, we need to really make a big effort to make people understand our brands. In fact, when I do a presentation, I usually show a slide that is a picture of a sewer stop, a put-deck-sol in Kuala Lumpur. It says KLM, Kuala Lumpur Municipality. And that is the way that people look at our brands. They have no idea. When we do advertising abroad, we show little airplanes in our advertising just to make people familiar with the fact that we're an airline. So we have found that digital is a main way for us to deliver our brand and also it's a very strong way for us to enhance our customer service. We are passionate about customer intimacy and we believe that that's quite difficult with 80 million customers and 100,000 employees. But digital allows us to be intimate with that customer again and that's why we use it a lot. So we try to learn from what's happening abroad. We think that, or outside I should say, we think that we should be where our customers are. If our customers choose to live digitally at least on Facebook Messenger, then that is where we will bring our services. If they choose to live in another digital place, then we will be there. And what we try to learn from the outside world, and a group like this is definitely the outside world. So I'm interested in hearing your ideas. Ruth Sandfliet, I'm one of the founders of Taxi Electric. We are a social enterprise. Started four years ago as the first 100% electric taxi service in Europe. Right now we are with about 100 people, mostly drivers. We try to recruit our drivers actively amongst people older than 50 years because this is a group of people that has a very hard time finding a job in the Netherlands. This is basically what we do. I think what's more important is why we do it. We believe in two things. And there's one is that we can do everything in a sustainable manner. And the second is that everyone can contribute to that world. And everyone has value. We have a payoff that says change the system. Basically what we do is we do what we think is good. And often our economy, our system doesn't value it. So we say, fuck the system, we're going to make it work. And the funny thing is that if you do it like that, you don't have to do marketing and you get really motivated people that work here at you because everyone is really proud in what they're doing. And basically that's our story. Okay. Thank you. Brilliant. So I think we'll start over here if we can. So what you said was really good. But you know, I'm an English man. Yeah. I can only think of the adian and booking.com have been Dutch companies over a billion. So why aren't the more big Dutch success stories to be talked about and what's holding these companies back? I think that's a very valid point you're touching. That's the thing Nellie and I discovered one and a half year ago. We had traveled the whole of Europe for startup Europe and we discovered nowhere the Netherlands was on the map nor our companies. And then we said to each other and more speaking your language, the marketing of the Netherlands is really bad. Because we, this country has about everything. We have the talent, the technology. There is, this is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. There is huge funds are available, 1700 billion on pension fund investments. And we could go on and on. If we talk about companies, it's indeed a gen elastic. Katariki is the fastest growing company in Europe, I believe even in the world. If we look at their figures. Hacker One, you name it there, I think we can mention about 20 to 30 very fast growing companies. If it's about unicorns, depending on where you start, but I think we could mention four, including life science companies like Archerta and Dezema Pharma. So we're doing very well. And I think the momentum in the Netherlands, but also in Europe is changing. We should be far more confident of what we're doing. We all know that the validation of companies in the US is way too high and they realize that themselves. So they are looking at Europe at possibilities we're doing here. If we think of what you're doing with, let's say sustainable taxi driving, that could be a huge market in the US as well. I think we should sell each other ourselves better, have a very good profile. I think, and that's what they always say, we're too modest, but we should be out there. And that's our starting point. Okay, thanks. So, Roed, can you be honest with us? How easy is it to grow your business here in Holland? What are the biggest barriers or frustrations? Well, we are here, we're quite successful. So I think Amsterdam is a good place to start. I think it's interesting when you look at the role of the government, there are two parts of it. For us, it was really helpful that Amsterdam had an agenda for electric mobility that they invested in charging infrastructure, for example. And I think what we learned from it, if you want as a government that something happens, if you want sustainable mobility, invest in the infrastructure. If you want internet companies, invest in the infrastructure. These are really expensive things. These are things that a startup cannot afford himself. And all the startups that want to do something with it will go to this place where it is. On the other hand, we are still in the Netherlands. The government is the largest contractor of taxi services, about 80%. Lots of elderly people are transported by taxis. And up till now, four years after we started, the government still accounts for only 0.1% of our customers. We drive for ABN, Ambro, ING, PWC, all these blue chip companies. Also KLM is a big client of us. But yet, we are not good enough to work for the government. So why is that? Because they are really risk averse, we noticed. They are really hesitant to take a risk, to try something new. Basically, we said when we came, first we tried to sell our product to the government. And we basically, we are doing what you have policies for. Better clean air in the city, more electric vehicles. We promote that actively. We hire people that are in social welfare. Yet, they say, well, if we choose you, that would be choosing you instead of someone else. That's not honest. We just book with Taxi Centrale Amsterdam with incumbent, because that's fair. It's really strange. What about Uber? What's the attitude to Uber? I think Uber is a really interesting company to see. They do of course great marketing. But it's totally different from what we do. We see Uber as of course an innovative app. But they are also the biggest free rider of the system. They don't have anything themselves. Only the app. The drivers have to pay for everything. For example, Amsoil is something that's difficult for us as a start-up. We almost went bankrupt because the government was really late with VAT payments. So at one stage, in the starting of the company, the government was a debtor at our firm for 100,000 euros. We still had to receive a lot of VAT back because we bought a lot of cars. Uber, for example, they had UberPop. They don't pay VAT. They are based in Amsterdam to not pay corporate tax. A lot of Uber drivers are in Holland, we call that Scheinselfstandige. And yet, our authorities do not try to do anything about it. Last year I spent more on applying the rules and investing in everything the government says you have to do than Uber paid in fines for not keeping themselves to the rules. This can't be right. Come on. You've got a good person. We're all good. Now we can get going. It makes the discussion easier. First of all, I'm not here to defend Uber. You're trying to get me into that role. I think the main thing is first of all, make competition possible. So if you're an interesting and a good competitor, the government, local or national, should give you the space to compete. That's also a question for me to you. How can we, because that's my role from StartupDelta, how can we help you to develop your business model? If we look at Uber, UberPop does no longer exist in the Netherlands. So that has been abolished a few months ago. The government decided that it wasn't a viable business model in the Netherlands, so they ended it. That's not true. Uber decided to stop it. Hashtag Savage Marketing if you want to have your own opinions and theorize. Those things go in close dialogue with both parties. It may be a bit different from what you perceive, but you could ask the Minister of Economic Affairs how it really happened. I don't have the discussion with the regulator if I should stop something that's not possible. If I would do it, I would get a fine. I would be out of business because I cannot pay for the fine. So this is already that there is no level playing field. I think your role is to actually help create the level of business, help these companies do that. That's what you're trying to say. Yes, so if you have an issue, we're here from StartupDelta to help you. So next week we've got a whole meeting with the VNG of all the Dutch gemeenten to discuss exactly these issues. Okay, so can we make a suggestion? Has anyone in the audience got a view on what the delta could be? What are the most difficult issues that are holding you back? Anyone got a view? Anyone want to share? A question? What I hear is two things. The Dutch ecosystem is not as good as Silicon Valley when it comes to funding and raising capital. That's one thing you hear. It's more difficult to get funds. I don't know if we hear or read. I don't know if it's true. Maybe we could elaborate on that. And the second thing is that's what I heard from Eindhoven. There's a lot of startups out there that foreign companies come there and as soon as there's a good idea and it tends to grow, they buy it and it's out of the country. So all the benefits from the growth are exported. That's the two things we hear. Could you share your view on that? That's a very important topic. Let's say our agenda is based on three pillars, capital, work and talent. From capital we analyze that there's a lot of money available in the Netherlands. If it's for startups, the problem is very early stage. It's quite difficult to find money where the risk is extremely high or if you want to grow. So anything from 5 million to 10 million or higher is difficult. So together with the Ministry of Finance of Economic Affairs, last week Minister Kamp put extra money in a seed capital and pre-seed fund to help that. And we're working with the pension funds, with both the ministries on a possible growth fund for what we call the bigger tickets to solve that. And our ideal picture would be that in the Netherlands you have such a big fund because you attract founders from all over Europe into the Netherlands. They could grow here but they would also stay in Europe. So you can do that together with the European Commission who also signaled what you exactly are mentioning. At the same time, Kees Kolen last week announced his big fund, Atomico has a fund of 700 million. So really the landscape is changing but it's still an issue what you mentioned. So we've got funding, regulation of the rules around not seem to be more for the big companies. What about you Charlie, you're one of the companies flag carrier. What's the role you guys play in Holland and how do you connect more with these startups? Is there a role that you can play? I think we do, we differ a bit in believing that the government is there to protect the big companies. We would like a lot more protection from the government than we actually get today but that's a whole different decision. Let's not get into that. No, no, let's do. No, it's about the Middle East carriers. I won't bore you with that. That's too much airline talk. No, I think we try lots of new technologies. As you know probably the airline industry is really a cutthroat business. Nobody's making a margin. So we try to come up with things that stops the commoditization of our industry that sets us apart from our competitors. In KLM we try to focus on customer intimacy and as I said we believe that great customer intimacy is enabled by digital solutions. So we look all around us for digital solutions. We've just launched a robot at Schiphol Airport, at Amsterdam Airport that helps passengers, that guides passengers from their arriving gate to their departure gate. Not to replace humans, it's not about more efficiency, it's about adding value for the customer and these are the kind of things that we really into and that we partner up with startups for. Do you partner up with some of these disruptive global companies too? How easy are they to work with? Well, yes we do. So we partner up with the likes of Facebook and Google. We have just launched a few weeks ago, months ago I should say, the ability to get your documents in the Facebook Messenger app rather than having to go to our own app or to our own website. We believe that we should be where our customer chooses to live in the digital space and if that's Facebook Messenger then that's where we facilitate. We find that they are quite easy to work with. They believe that, and I think we're in a happy place there, they believe that we are an innovative company so they eagerly work with us like we do with them and they actually approach us to develop new features together. So I think it really pays for us to be an innovator, to be on the forefront of digital development because nowadays these big ones come to us, Uber but also Facebook and Google. And just a question for the audience, I'd like to do a vote. How many of you see KLM as a happy innovative company and how many of you see it not one of those companies? Who sees KLM as a happy innovative company, hands up? Wow, thank you. And who sees it as not? Very good, that's very good. Yeah, absolutely, I'm really honoured and I think the naysayers have a point as well because we are a very traditional airline and innovation only goes that far because obviously everything is safety first so there's very limited things you can do about innovating the actual process of getting you from A to B but everything around that we try to be as innovative as possible. So thank you for your feedback. So why are you changing your CEO if you're getting this reaction? Well, it's the CEO of the group so Air France and KLM. It was a board decision, let me leave it at that. Okay, so the other thing that's interesting is we were doing some, basically a tour for the BBC and we spent some time two weeks ago in Thailand and we were amazed in Thailand because if you compare Thailand with America, you know there are 4% of women as CEOs in America and in Thailand, guess how much it is? 40, roughly 40% of CEOs are women and the women are very much dominant in that country, both in their role as to be a leader at work and at home. But what's the situation in Holland? What percentage of women are CEOs and how much are women at the top in Dutch business? Does anyone know? What's the gut feel? Does anyone know the answer? Yes sir? 12% are a bit higher. Okay, so why is it, you know we've got some countries in the world now going a lot higher. We've got one woman on this panel, which is good. The other lady didn't show up but that's okay. So, she's too busy. So why aren't there more women at the top in Holland? And what's your view on this? When I speak for KLM, we do have a lot of women and not per se at the top. I think it has something to do with the origin, the background of the company, which is really an engineering operational background that as you see in education as well simply attracts fewer women, hence less women make it all the way to the top. But isn't it now in today's world, you know, you're taking families all around Europe, you need to be more customer intimacy. Don't women have more EQ than men? Absolutely. So we are very passionate about bringing more women into the company. My team has a favorable balance in the team in terms of male versus female. But I think the overall background of specifically KLM is one of the reasons for that. I think it also has to do a lot with timing. I mean for a board level function, people that do those functions are often 50s, 60s. So take a while to get there. We are recruiting now an operational manager and a marketing manager. And we see like men-female ratio 50-50 in applications and I think there will be maybe even two females that we are hiring. So I think the future looks really bright if you look what is coming up now. And so we have to also be a bit patient. You cannot get there overnight, of course. OK. So any views? Can I say something about it as well? Yeah. Because it's absolutely true. I think it is changing but way too slow. Years ago I was manager high tech systems. My whole team consisted of men and it was very difficult to hire women. And people even thought I had something against women because over the years no other women came into my team. And I really tried. So I understand one side of the story. The other side is I think also for women themselves. The Netherlands is a part time culture. That doesn't help if you want to go into top managerial positions because that is full time and more. But last week we had the inspiring 50. So that's about 50 leading tech women from Europe in Amsterdam and The Hague. We discussed with them the different cultures they came from. And then I mean the cultures in the company. So from Xerox to just nearly anything, Siemens. And there you see when the top is supporting diversity. So not only women but also black people. All sorts of things, different ages. That from top down and it's part of the culture, it's part of the hiring. And then you create the change. It really doesn't happen from themselves. And the fourth thing is it's so subconscious. We all do it without realizing it. It starts when you're a child. How your parents support you to go this way or that way. And we had a fantastic presentation from someone on Facebook who said it's even in the classroom or where you have your job interview. If you have a job interview as a woman surrounded by race cars, you feel less comfortable than when it's closer to you. So it's in so many ways it plays a role. It is changing but way too slow. Okay. Is there a couple of views from other people on the floor? I think there are some more things. I think you've already pointed out the point that emotions and those kind of things are like taboo anyway. I think a lot of men are scared to actually let emotions in besides the rational part of being in a board. And I think a lot of board members are very much focused on the accounting part of the company, keeping things stable and so on. But I think we see that we need more maybe algorithm in the boards as well if we want to change maybe the world and be future-proof. And I think it's very important to have a better balance. But I think most boards are now focused on the old boys network and focused on meaning. So you now have to keep it stable. And I think that's a change which we have to make because we see it very hard for, well, mostly rational people at the moment to actually see it and maybe also feel it that there has to be change. Yeah. I agree with you. I'll just get one more. Yes, sir? Please speak out loud. Yeah, I have a question in Germany. For example, the government discussed the quota of 40% a year ago. What is your view on this, like, having on the board level a quota of 40%? Okay. So come on to that. So the latest point, I think, is that, and I see this globally, Ed, that there's too many sort of dominated white male 55-year-old boardrooms that are actually risk averse. And they don't want to put a female CEO in and take that risk. But I think there's a second thing, and this came out last week, is we were running an event with a FTSE 30 company. And the feedback, the culture said that women are not treated in the same way as men. And basically, the guy was just like, silence. And this lady stood up. She said, it's absolutely right. I can't mention about my maternity leave. I can't show any weakness. I can't do, and then all of a sudden, all of the women in the room said the same thing. And two of the guys said, we don't know anything about this. And they were saying, oh my God, you know, he's got no idea. But actually, he was genuinely now ignorant. So there's, and when we unpicked it, it wasn't deliberate discrimination. It was the nature of a company that has alpha in its approach. You couldn't show any weakness. You couldn't be, you didn't want to disclose things. So I think there's a sort of these cultures in Western companies that are still that. And I think they have a lot of the initiatives. But these initiatives, a lot of it are lip service, aren't they? So how do we and what's you do we have to is one way quotas or is there another way we can we can do this? In the values that women traditionally value more than that. And then we get the sixth system, right? So that is the real problem. Yeah, it's following your point about hiring. I think many corporates tend to do that. They hire. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of realizing for people that they are hiring. Yeah, it's one big step. Yeah. There is just. It is also when you look at nature, when do you get all this cool new stuff when there's a lot of diversity? What are we trying to teach it? Everything the same. So we basically take away with the process of pre-market liberalization, which has a lot of great things in place, but everything become more and more the same. So you get less innovation and less the real economic growth drivers like Internet, like all these new technologies. The more diverse the world is, the more of these new innovations we get. That's why I think if as a company you don't support diversity from the beginning, you're facing your own Kodak moment in the end. Silicon Valley is based on immigration, on diversity. It's 50 percent of the founders that comes from outside the U.S. The one big issue there is still women and they're doing everything to change that. But I think diversity is key here and you can only support it if you start immediately in your own circle because I can imagine quota is an important topic. I also agree. You probably hire your own people. It's a quantitative measure and not a qualitative. And if you can combine the both, then it will work. Yeah. I think also we could have... Is this on this topic? Yeah. Yeah, it's still on this topic. I mean, I've heard some things about the emotional connection to women from the men that are in the boards, but I often feel like they feel threatened as well. I mean, because I can't exactly say the same thing as, for example, you are and then they don't take me seriously, but they do it when he says the exact same thing. Because I'm a woman and I don't know, maybe they think, yeah, you look cute, but yeah, I don't know what to say. I mean, it's something that he says coming from you. And somehow... But that's the root of it, isn't it? Other men seriously for some reason. And I think it's because we are very traditional. I mean, men were in the world for years. Basically in all those companies, they started here, they built it, and then now women since the 60s are also... You're outnumbered. Yeah, you're outnumbered as well. So I'm just conscious of time here because I think this is a very rich topic. But I sense that there's something about... There is something in quotas, but I think it's also the smart CEOs and leaders see the power of diversity. If I can get a really diverse workforce, the right gender, the right age, like you were the 50s, there's a company in England called ASOS, which is the 20s, the place to go for 20s. And they're letting the 20-year-olds loose. So I think there's this kind of power you get in an opportunity for this. And in the meantime, I think we need a role model. We need to think of... Wouldn't it be great if it had a big Dutch CEO success? So hopefully there's one in this room maybe. You can help them. Yeah. There's a fact that cooking.com has a female CEO now. I think it will do a lot for women in tech. Actually, in the tech industry, she's actually the best-paid CEO of the Netherlands. And she helps people. They make more money. I had a question about the robot. I mean, it's stuck with me. Why the robot and not just use normal people? I mean, I get that the robot is innovative, but I can't work with stardust. But for me, when I travel to some strange place I've never been before and I get to the airport, it's usually... I mean, I've been in an airplane for like hours and I just want to have a feeling that I'm welcome there. And a robot doesn't exactly strike as very welcoming to me because it's like a screen made better. And it's voice coming out, it doesn't even sound human to me. It does, but... Yeah, maybe it doesn't. I think it's just a robot and I can recognize it. What's the voice? Why not use actual human beings? Well, for one thing, this robot speaks 27 languages. It can speak English, but the majority of our Asian customers does not. So we have Chinese and Japanese people working for us on board the planes, but as soon as people arrive in Amsterdam, usually our ground staff speaks English, French, German, Spanish, but not all of them speak Korean, Japanese, and Chinese. So for specific groups, these robots... At the same point in time, these are customers that are not used to traveling. They're used to traveling in groups. They're not very comfortable being on their own in a strange place. And this robot is able to direct them in their own language to where they need to go in that airport. Good. What about robots driving your electric cars? Are you up for that? For sure, we'll have a day that our taxis will be driving us. In fact, then our cars will be taxis, so that's also an opportunity for us. Would you ever have a pilotless plane? Does anybody fly in a pilotless plane? Who would make this question for the audience? I would, without a pilot. Who would go in a driverless car? A driverless taxi? Who wouldn't do it? Who would go in a pilotless plane? It's already automated. They've got drugs today. That's another thing about Dutch culture. Autopilot is already existing. But with no humans in the... The automatic pilot is already existing, so it can land. There are still three people in the air. Three people usually in the air, two or three people in the air. We're seeing all the systems. People are nervous about not having people in the air. Other questions, please. Yes, madam? What is the best marketing thing you've done in the past year, the past 12 months? Best marketing? Well, I can say the first six months of our existence, we put a lot of emphasis on marketing. If you look at the Berlin ecosystem, it's based on marketing. In the beginning, there was SoundCloud and hardly anything else. And it was marketing, marketing positioning yourself. So that's what we learned from them and put the Netherlands on the map. Via the network we had with the media, from the Financial Times to Forbes, we involved everyone and everything. But you need a good story. What we also did is the Compass ranking of ecosystems. We approached them and said, number one is Silicon Valley, no wonder. All the technology is there, but it's also not a city. So we claimed, can we see Amsterdam as larger Amsterdam, just like Silicon Valley, and involve a 90-mile zone around Amsterdam? So in the end, the deal was 60 miles and we could involve all the hubs like Delft, et cetera. So marketing is one, but you need a good story and need to be quite clever to get in there. And I think that was our best marketing story. Okay, sounds good. Mine would be, we used to write long-form articles for LinkedIn that used to generate a lot of viewers, but we couldn't get the likes up. So basically, Anna and I sort of stepped back and said, how do we build a community of people interested in CEOs? And how do we get in the top 100 influencers in LinkedIn? Because the viewers, if we get to that, there'll be lots of random value that will come to us globally. And so we contacted LinkedIn and they were about to launch their mobile app. And we agreed that we would contribute consistently to LinkedIn, short form, which is like a quote from a really good CEO, or one of our secrets, or a short form piece on something we were doing, and occasionally do a long form like Brexit. We're doing one on Brexit at the moment. So basically, for us, our viewers are going up 100,000 followers a month. So I think LinkedIn, plus the other thing, is linking the BBC to LinkedIn. So the BBC program we have, we basically wire it up to LinkedIn and back and forth and start to do video. So video, I think, is the big thing, I think, from the previous presentation. So we're going to do short clips of one minute on CEOs. So I think that seems to be the big change. And for us... The wrong one, yeah. So for us, we got a lot of positive spin about being the first airline on Facebook Messenger, so that helped, but that was really more customer service and not really marketing. I think for us, what we call cockpit tails, videos that we made of how a flight operates, what pilots do during their day, that was the response, and that was enormous. We just put a few GoPros in the cockpit, and we recorded what they do, how their briefings go, how they land on difficult runways, how they go up in the clouds, et cetera. And it really showed us that our product in itself bears so much interest for large groups of people that that in itself is a very powerful marketing tool. We reached millions and millions of people with a very, very low budget. Can I ask a question? Because KLM is one of the largest employers in the country. So do you think of using your employees as your marketeers? So the employed channels of KLM seems to be huge. Yeah, we're running a test right now with our, what we call, social ambassadors. So we have asked, I forget the number, but a few hundred of our colleagues to actively share with their friends and family and their social networks when they think there's something worth sharing of KLM to actively do that. And we see that the employees like it a lot because they tend to be proud of working for KLM. And the reach is massive, obviously, because people trust our employees to say the right things about the company. So it's working very well, and we plan to expand the pilot. Can I ask a question regarding the data as well? Yeah, I completely agree with that strategy, but sometimes big corporations just don't allow their employees to talk about anything because they're afraid of what their employee can say and maybe they get something wrong. Which company do you work for? Who do you work for? What? Who do you work for? Embroider. Is that a big company? It's an aircraft company. So what would you advise me to do? We're in the same industry. So how does KLM work with that? Do you train? So the people that are involved in customer contact through our social media channels on a daily basis obviously get trained, but they get trained in the way to interact with our customers, not what to say and what not to say. We have a general policy that states that when our employees talk to the press, they should have... And we consider social media as press because you speak to not just one person, but to many people. They should show restraint and think about what they say, but we don't forbid employees to speak to our customers via whatever channel. So we allow them to speak to our customers because we believe that it's one of the strengths of our brands, of our brand in particular KLM, that our employees are open and approachable. So we don't want them to say, I'm sorry, I cannot speak to you. Please go to a spokesperson. Got to be the way. Yeah. So can I ask you a question? So in my country, we have this situation at the moment where everybody's going mad about Brexit. Is Britain... David Cameron's complaining about your... Compaining for Europe? We've got Boris Johnson, the guy with the yellow hair. He's like, I've been playing cricket with people trying to get us out of Europe. I'm really interested as to what you think about Britain in Europe. Do you want us in? Do you not want us in? Do you give a care? So just generally... And also, can I capture it just while we're here in the spirit of all of this? So who would like... Answer me honestly. So I'm going to ask you first. You want Britain to be in Europe and then out. So who would... Oh my goodness. So who would like Britain to be in Europe? Okay. Who'd like Britain to be out of Europe? We'd rather be in the same. Okay. And who doesn't really care? Oh, you want us. That's really nice. Thank you. Okay. So what do you think to that? Is it going to be good for Holland or Britain in Europe and for Europe? Well, first of all, it affects my family life because I'm married to one. Oh, great idea. We're great husbands. I think because I worked in the European Commission for a couple of years, I think it's good for the balance of power. Otherwise, it's France, Germany. And I think it's good to have also the transatlantic link and the transatlantic view of the UK. Considering all the... And that's sounding very complex, but the systemic linkages in Europe with the UK financially, all the people, let's say from Eastern Europe, are working there, it will have huge consequences if this has to change. And of course, we can always manage change, et cetera. But I'm not sure exactly who will benefit from this. I think what's interesting is that Europe is a bit as a bank. It's sort of too big to fail, and that's you go on, go on, go on. A lot of wrong stuff happens. Still, you go on, go on. And what we see is that it's really lacking on a vision on Europe. And it might be good if we get a sort of a crisis moment, that they really leave, because then we need to get together again and based on a clear vision, why is there a Europe? Right now, there are people dying in the sea because Europe is basically... There's no vision. Right now, Europe says people that want to join us are a problem. I mean, this is a society that has not really a long-term value. I mean, if you are not able to get people with you, if it doesn't make you happy, same as with an organization, you value your people. If there can work more people at KLM, well, you will be happier. You can create new jobs. Europe will say, well, this is a problem. So it might help to address the real issues. No, I agree. I think in Britain, most CEOs want Britain to stay in. They don't have strong views about it. And the big worry is all the uncertainty, because it would take us two years to exit. What would that do? So we've got a chance for one final question, or I can ask a question for the guys. Anyone got a final burning question? All right, let's take two. We'll pick the best one. Yes, sir? What's your question? Yeah, you first. It's nice to share your successes, but I'm also very curious about the biggest failures you've had. Okay, perfect. Yes, sir? Your question? Okay, perfect. Can we do both of those, Steve, just quickly? Yes. Okay. So can we do, like, what was your biggest failure, honestly? And not just either the fake ones. So what's the biggest mistake you really made? Yes, sir? Okay, thank you. So I'm not sure if it's our biggest mistake, because we make quite a few. Your personal one. My personal one. That's a trick one. We'll give you a second to think about it. What about you? Well, I think it's a big one. I think it's a big one. I think it's a big one. I think it's a big one. I think it's a big one. I think it's a big one. I think it's a big one. What about you? My biggest one in this job is that I completely underestimated how difficult it is to be a startup. We, as I said from the beginning, we're going to be like a startup. So in a new environment, nothing arranged, new team. We know our goals, et cetera. I think the first six months, we spent hours on getting printing paper, getting the cleaning lady in. All these things, and you hardly have time to focus on what your goals are. So for me, that was a very important experience. And I think I understand startups a lot better now because everything you have to conquer, it's immense. Yeah, I do. It's not like I don't have it. I have a lot, so I just want to find a suitable one. No, I think my biggest mistake when taking this position, at least, was not taking into account the cultural differences within my team. So back to diversity. I oversee both the French and the Dutch part, and that sometimes I assumed an equal starting point, but they turned out to be really different, which hampered me a lot in succeeding in my plans. Diversity and cultural differences. So mine was I had two. The funny one is there was one rule in the company, I only had one rule in the company that you couldn't have a relationship with someone in the company. And then I fell in love with somebody in my company. I had to change the rule, and I had to go in front of all the directors and change the rule. And now we're going to change it back again. So anyway, moving on. So the other one is about internet things and then disruption. So where do you see the internet going in the future and maybe broaden that question to disruption opportunities? Can I start? So we, of course, there's the obvious things with internet of things. If you have a permanent tag on your suitcase, you'd be able to track it everywhere. And when we lose it, then you already know where it is before we do. So there's a lot of opportunity there. But also in terms of customer intimacy and serving our passengers better, why having to check in for a flight, why having to pull out your boarding pass at three different locations at the airport, if we recognize you via biometrics, if we know that the app you have installed on your phone can make a link to the passport and then the gate can scan your face and connect all things, you can just enter the plane without being stopped one single time. These are the kind of things that we're working on right now. Okay. With regard to the internet, I think it's very interesting and more often than I think. What you see is two things. One thing you see with the phone is that you have a really powerful, really powerful, monophonic player. And then the other end you see the internet of things making small people more, getting them more authoritative, helping them. I think crucial in the next 10 years will be seeing, can we get this internet of things to do something good for everyone or making the few even stronger, richer. And I think it's really interesting. And we as a company, we try to basically embrace everything that's the letter, like making the small one then big again. And we're also basically working on a plan to do so in the taxi market, to use this new dynamic to strengthen the taxi drive again. We're looking at the pressure right now. Yeah. Sigrid? Yeah, to me it's important if you look at the internet of things, it's about two things. It's connectivity between people, between objects, et cetera. It's also about big data and information. I think we are facing a sort of risk that it becomes very abstract, that we lose the bigger goal or that we get all sorts of gadgets, which will probably sell very well. But we really should use the internet of things, let's say in the context of smart cities, that is not only tech driven, but it's also societal challenges driven. And if we manage to combine that, I'm a huge believer in the internet of things. My dream would be that I'd be sitting somewhere really sunny, and I've got the Sea of EasyJet here, sorry. I've got the Sea of Virgin here. And literally, you know the Star Wars, when they're all in a hologram and you can talk to them. I could just sit there with a gin and tonic and give them advice about how to be a great leader. That would be, hopefully I could do that. So we've run out of time, unfortunately, but hopefully you found it informative and enjoyable. I just want to thank each and every one of the panelists. They've made a great contribution, very open. And so can I just thank Rude, Shaleed and Sigrid please.