Meet the Video Producers

Hello, welcome! It's nice to meet you all. So, the title says it all. So I'm just gonna quickly introduce myself, but I'm not important. They are the important people. And then we're gonna do a round-off presentation, and then we will start with the first questions. Just one thing that I would suggest. If you start to have questions about something that they say, just raise your hand. I'm gonna try to observe it, and at least I have an understanding of how many questions we have, so I know how much time to leave at the end. That's enough. So my name is Paolo Campagnoli. I'm the head of video at Unmuted. We are an agency based in Amsterdam. We work internationally with a lot of different clients. We work in B2B space, and I started my career in video 20 years ago. And since then, I've always been very passionate about it. Let's start with Dave. Yes, hello. My name is David Brain. I'm a technical producer and production leader at Ingka, which is a part of IKEA. So I work in the broadcast team. We broadcast live, we pre-record things, we make all kinds of stuff, depending on which part of the business is asking us to make it. My name is Cecilia Boechat. I'm a video producer of 23. I imagine you've seen my face around in our products and website and different video contents that we create. I'm Charles Arnold. I'm a senior video producer at Gelato. It's a Norwegian unicorn, but my role is everything that touches video around the company. So large webinars and also those small little 10-second video ads you see on Instagram. So the first question that we thought about is like the world of video is very different and very scattered and very particular to every business that uses video. And therefore also the career of every one of us has been very different in that sense. So like the first question that I thought about when they asked me to think about questions for this session was, what does it mean to be a video producer for you all? I will maybe start with Charles. Yeah, I mean, right now, I guess like a video producer for me is whatever the company that I work for needs. Right? So I mean, I started out as a filmmaker and that was like really just storytelling from the get-go. And that's what I really translate into the role at any company and especially at Gelato is how do I tell the story of the brand? How do I tell the story of the campaign or the moment? That's pretty much it for me. From my experience, it's very much a 360 role because in 23 is very much about stakeholder management, making sure that we have different people on camera, that they are comfortable with it. Also that when we have projects with shared responsibilities, that things are also moving. So I'm like, okay, can we move on? Do we have everything you need? Also sitting close to all the heads in the company to make sure that video is supporting our strategy. It's the best way possible. And also with distribution and editing. So it's very much a holistic approach to video in my way. I think you're both absolutely right. I would also say the main thing for me is always has been and always will be the audience, actually, first and foremost. So fighting against, sometimes fighting against stakeholders and clients a bit to serve the audience. So getting complete clarity on who you're talking to and why you're talking to them. That's always the most important thing with everything. Yeah. And for instance, I'm thinking about you, Cecilia, that you have also journalistic background. So how that background that you all have differently shaped the way in which you work daily on the video production? Yeah. So my background is in journalism and I worked in TV back in Brazil. Brazilian, by the way. Yeah. So having worked in TV. Gave me major two things, I would say. Both a lot of experience in project management. So in-house collaborators, but also everyone else that we had outsourcing everything necessary from all the possible providers that you can imagine. But then very much what you said with the audience, right? So having a close look in performance and what are people liking, what are the trends, but also making sure that the identity of the channel that you're working on is the right one. Yeah. And then the second thing is that I think that the identity of the channel that I was working at would be transferred into that. And I've also worked as an independent content producer for many years for large brands and smaller brands. So that 360 approach definitely came from that as well. I had that with Ray. I started working... Have I suddenly got really loud? Yeah. You're a bit too loud. Sorry. It's okay. Is everyone okay? I started working... My first job ever was in live radio. So it was late night live radio. I didn't know what I was doing. And it was quite scary, but it was a very immediate thing. So you'd always have a reaction from the audience like instantly because they'd text you or they'd call in and there would be a relationship there. I became aware of the art of storytelling. So the idea of keeping people interested for longer is really, really rare. It's really hard to do that. And I worked with people that were so good at it. Just kind of teasing people, keeping them on the line. Keeping them listening to the shows. And that's massively informed my job now. For all the talk of AI, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, there is the underlying thing of who are you talking to and why are you talking to them? Which I think is... I don't know what you guys find, but when you're producing stuff and when a brief comes in, the first question to me should always be, why are you doing this? Just because you can do it, it doesn't mean you should. What's the point of this? Who's the audience in that sense? Yeah. And why do they care? Yeah. Exactly. I mean, my upbringing is I was just in love with videos, movies, television. And I needed to show that outlet. So I joined the TV tech class in high school. Ended up working for that TV tech high school teacher. He had his own production company. So I started in weddings, in dance recitals, filming events, kind of things like this. Taking that knowledge and moving on to how do I translate it into actually telling a story? So I started going into music videos and such like that. So like you all say, we need to tell the story and why is it really important to say. And I think it gets harder as well. Who here, do you make videos or do you want to make videos? Is everyone kind of in? Obviously you're interested, yeah? Hello. Why aren't you up here? You were here last week. You've been demoted. That's what it is. You can ask the questions by all parts of the production as a video producer. So whether it's the client, the person that's in the video, the people that are going to watch the video, the person that's paying for the video, whose budget it is, and then up, up, up, up, up, up, there's constant questions about what it's going to be. And that's tough, I find. I find, I don't know about you guys, but that's a hard balance to strike between getting all of those people happy, but at the same time really serving the product. Because ultimately, if you cave in, if you give in to a certain person, the end result will suffer. Do you find that? Yeah. Please tell me you do, otherwise it's just me. In some ways, yeah. Did you have something to say? Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to the whole stakeholder management, right? So, of course, we create content for the audience, but who is paying it? And if you have an external client, so it is definitely challenging. Would you say that this is the most painful point of video production? Or what is the core problem? I would say, I've got to be careful what I say here. Do you have clients here? No, I just have the people that employ me, which is even worse. When someone comes to you and says, oh, we want to do a video. And you go, okay, why? And they go, because it's video. It's like, that's not the answer. That's not the answer. Yeah, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And that filters out sometimes. If you can get that right, if you can get the motivation right, the concept right, and the people right, at the start, before you even pick up a camera or talk about anything, then it's going to be a good time. If any of that stuff's a bit off, you feel it throughout the whole production, and you see it in the end product. Would you say that it's also for you guys, the same, main pain point? I'll say so. I also believe that when you work with video, there are so many variables. So if you're running a webinar, as we do so much in 23, right, the end result depends on how much in advance are you advertising it. Or if the person on camera, like, if they have, you know, engaging storytelling, depending on how that go, or maybe the series is interesting, but that episode, people are not much interested at. Or the thumbnail, was not the correct one or the description or the channel that we are advertising. So there are so many variables, I think. And it's very much a matter of trying out and getting the data and observing that, analyzing that afterwards. But it's definitely, I would say one of the toughest parts for me, like mapping all the variables and then analyzing that with the team and all of that. For me, I think it's timing, right? So sometimes somebody on the marketing team or the product team will be like, Hey, we need this video. And then we're like, In 30 minutes. 30 minutes has happened before too. So trying to figure out the speed versus the storytelling. And then that's how you come up with the recipe or the framework. What worked before, how do we replicate that? But in a faster way, change it to the story that you're trying to tell, the audience that you're trying to reach, and ultimately the goal that you're trying to get to. Cecilia, you were mentioning something that is very interesting also, which is life. What, what is the biggest challenge? And what is the biggest difference in your opinion between producing and publishing? on-demand content versus live content? I think here, of course, we fall back into the timing thing, like making sure that we have everything literally on time and also having the necessary people in your team or making sure that you are on top of everything to make sure that everything goes on simultaneously, like taking care of everything gear-related, everything marketing-related, and engagement in the chat. And also in my case, so I'm producing content from within the platform, so I'm also our hero user. I'm always knocking the door of all the engineers. I'm like, I think we need to change this. And so I would say that, yeah, the whole timing thing is definitely very hard and the management of everything happening at the same time. And also you cannot say, we will fix it in post. Exactly. It is what it is. For me, that's the main point. I think the biggest issue... The biggest issue, if I can be really blunt, is the people. It's the people. People are always the issue. The problem is that they're also the solution. Yeah, but people are awful, aren't they, sometimes? And everyone's guilty of it if you're having a bad day. If you put somebody in front of a live camera and go, okay, and three, two, one, you're live. Not many people can just go, hello, how are you? Most people go... And they freak out. And that's live, and you can't do anything about that, and you can't really prepare for that either. So this is the whole thing about bringing all the right elements together. If you've got somebody that could... Oh, and also, loads of stuff goes wrong all the time, and it will do forever until we all die. That's how it works. It happened this morning. The clicker didn't work. The thing didn't... The guy had to do the what. It happens all the time, and it happens in live broadcast. So if you've got somebody in front of the camera, or somebodies in front of camera that know that and understand that they might have to just wing it a bit and they can improvise a bit and cope with it, that's a lifesaver. That can change... That changes everything. I think if we want to talk about webinars, yeah, you definitely... You definitely want to prep the person that's going to go into it. Oh, yeah. Like, you have to choose the right people. Yeah. And if you're, like, limiting those kinds of people like that, the person has a knowledge, or they created that product. You're like, oh, they can walk us through it pretty easily, but then you put them in front of a camera, and they've never been in front of a camera before, then how do you direct them live? You can't. No, not exactly. So you have to do a lot of prep work beforehand. Yeah. On the note of being blunt, something that happened today, so the keynote that you guys just watched, it was live streamed through a webinar, in 23, and I was the host of that webinar for everyone who was not here at 23 Summit. And, yes, we were late in the beginning, so I needed to take, like, four minutes or something before I could say, okay, ready, let's go. And then when I joined the webinar room, I also had my computer... Oh, oopsie. Did you hear me well? Yes? Okay. I was in the webinar room, and all of that, and the first comment was someone saying, yeah, I thought... Rule number one on webinar was to be on time. And I was like, that sounds messy. I got to react to that. Yeah. And, I mean, I need to look at it and say, okay, so we're doing that and just keep on going. So, I mean, my armpits were sweating, but you couldn't see that, so just keep on rolling, so, yeah. Yeah, the live chat can add a lot of pressure. Yeah. And it's a lot easier to be behind the keyboard, no cameras or anything on, so you can say whatever you want and really just put the pressure. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that is another topic. We should do a session on it. Like, how to manage live content. We do that. Noted for 23 Summit 27. How to prepare, yeah. We did, sorry to interrupt, we did something a couple of weeks ago. I'm not going to tell you who it was. Not that you would know, but, you know, he deserves the respect. And I said to him, turn up, you know, you're going to be on camera, you know, so wear some, you know, wear something nice. Oh, my God. Don't get me started on that one. But then I said, wear something you feel comfortable in. And then he turned up the next day in a Jurassic Park T-shirt. That's not even the best bit. He had a Jurassic Park T-shirt and the tiniest pair of denim shorts I've ever seen on a man. And he was sitting like this. And flip-flops. Yeah, I was like, whoa, we can't do anything about this, man. Add guidelines, yeah. Yeah, I'm like, we need to be more specific about how we dress here. That was a rookie mistake from you. What's it, what? A rookie mistake. A rookie mistake from me? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like, just wear something comfortable. Wear something comfortable. You never know. And I mean, he looked great, you know, on the beach, but not in a broadcast. I would still never wear stripes and such. All that shit. I was like, tiny patterns, please, no tiny patterns. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's something that AI cannot fix it. But, as you already spoiled, I mean, the elephant in the room is, like, video production and AI. Like, how is it changing for you? I find myself, I don't know about you, but I'm probably old now. I think I am old now. I feel a bit sort of nervous about it is the wrong word, but I'm very cautious of it. Because it's reduced. I'm, by the way, I'm guilty of this. It reduces my attention to detail in the moment, which I don't like. So I did it two days ago. I was filming something on location, and the wireless mics that we had were busted. They didn't work. And I was like, oh, don't worry. I'll fix it afterwards. And I was like, ugh. And I hated myself for saying it, but I know I can. So it was just shooting on a phone. It was, like, really, really quick stuff. But I knew if I was the right distance away and we were away, from the wind, I can take it and pump it up afterwards in no time at all. And that's kind of, you feel like you're kind of losing an art form a little bit. Because, you know, friends of mine are sound guys or girls, and it's their craft. They love it, and they're brilliant at it. And it's becoming less and less impactful on shoots and on locations and in studios, which I think is fantastic. But then perhaps when you start off, you have to learn those foundational things are really important to learn. To get wrong, and then learn, and then you build from that. So if you lose that, I sort of am a bit concerned about that, if I'm honest. Yeah, you do have to learn it, like, right away. You have to experience it firsthand, because you know, it will sound bad, or it'll sound good, or it'll look good, look bad. And then you can only figure it out in post and use AI to fix it if you know what looks in looks bad. So yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you're talking about post. And definitely, that's a great part of the process that we can use AI. But I mostly use in pre-production. I would say. Yeah. So like, for example, spots, any gaps I might have left, or you're helping me, so I put an input, I'm like, okay, this is the outcome that I want to get from this content. This is the goals that we need to hit. And it needs to be a webinar, or I need to split that in different ways. So it helps me to, yeah, like have a faster thinking in the mapping out the whole production process. I would say that's where it's the most. I think so for me, too. But for editing as well, like I'm not very great at like after effects or removing some things like that. So AI helping remove the logo that's not supposed to be there, or a coffee cup, Game of Thrones. So things like that. Very good. Like as long as you can create a workflow that works for you, that you can keep it human as a lead, because obviously if you just leave it all up to AI, it's not going to know what looks good. And it's not going to translate it to your story that you're trying to tell. Not for me. I'll always come back to that. It also influenced outside of IKEA. I do some commercial work. I work in front of the camera and stuff. And I get briefs through that have like the breakdown. So it's kind of a storyboard of the advert or whatever it is. And you can see now that they've prompted the storyboard. So it's an AI generated storyboard, which on one hand you go, well, that's fantastic because that's a really clear idea of exactly what you think this is going to look like. But then I also think maybe that kind of that's the tail wagging the dog a little bit. If you see that through to the end, it starts to look like the thing the computer. Yeah. You're led by that. You need to have critical thinking. Do you know what I mean? And revise that. And make sure like also very much about the prompt, right? Yeah. So you feed it right. It's not like write this interview questions like for what, for who? Yeah. You know? But what I mean is if you're a director or something like, yeah, particularly a director, you have a vision, then I think you end up getting led by the AI stuff subconsciously maybe. And you lose the element of just like this is your idea and it's coming from your brain. I think that's kind of why we watch stories. And why we watch anything really. So I hope that doesn't go. Yeah. I mean for storyboarding specifically, I used to hand draw them and I'm a terrible drawer. So now having AI generate ideas that I have a little bit helpful for me. Is it? Yeah. So do you, but surely you can, but surely it coming from your hand is like a, there's a power figure. There's a, yeah, but that's good because you haven't formed it yet. You've got a former on this on this on sale. You've got a former on location. If you're starting to then look for the, what the AI is generated, maybe that takes away the essence of you. I don't know. I'm just, I don't know if it's right. It's. I use it. Right. Like I also do the same. I actually studied arts in high school, but like I forgot completely how to draw. Thanks to the computers. But like, it's also interesting that you can also do the first prompt. The prompt can also be like a sketch that you did, but it's just like more decent to show something that made with AI rather than your shitty, sorry, shitty sketch that you did on a piece of paper. Right. Okay. I sound old. I told you I sound old. So of course AI is also all connected to the ethical aspect of like our job, right? Like for instance, nowadays what I do when I do founder brand videos, for instance, where you have founders that are not really great in speaking, what I do is making them record a small beat for the script so that I can overdub them with AI so that they process their voice too, so that I can make, you know, changes to what they say. So I do that in a very ethical way. I promise. I don't tell them. Yeah, yeah, they know. I asked them the, the, yeah, the confirmation from them. Uh, also because the script don't process the, uh, the audio otherwise, if there is no, uh, authorization, but, uh, like potentially you could do that with other tools that don't ask and don't require authorization. So like, that's an example of like how, uh, these old thing can also bring up some ethical questions and how do you process them? Do you ever happen to even ask yourself, am I doing this right? Like, is that fine if I do this? Yeah, personally, I have a very fine line which is aligned with the 23 of course. Uh, but we're very much people first. So like always having a personal camera and of course there are different companies with different approaches and uh, that's just fine. It just depends on the values of who is working in, how they perceive that. But, uh, I'm very much people first on camera. So not working with the avatar for example, and then using AI for example, uh, for the translation for over 70 languages and the transcriptions and all of that. So that's, that's what I personally draw a line in my, in my work. But I figured you have different opinions. Maybe. No, I, I would love to be human first always, you know, but that's not always the case. You know, sometimes, uh, the timing is a thing, right? So we had this one, a coworker of mine, she was great on camera. She, uh, bubbly, you know, charismatic. But then she had a million other jobs, right? She just has so many things to do and filming takes so long. So we're like, okay, how can we, how can we streamline this? We need to make this faster. We looked at some AI avatars. They weren't so great, but then some of them where you can like film that person for two minutes, five minutes is better. Uh, and then you can actually have them, uh, real person, real avatar AI. And then you just ask them, Hey, are you cool with this? Are you cool with putting your video into some database across the world and whatever they're going to do with it? And at first they were like skeptical about it, but then they were like, you know what? We have to get these videos done. We don't have any time. We don't have a budget to hire more people for this, unfortunately. So let's go. So, yeah, I, I, I'm just afraid that, of course we all work. We live in a capitalist society We need to have deliverables, but, uh, I'm just afraid that if that's always, um, the only guideline, we're just going to be crunched by the machine. I think, I think you can then go back and forth with it. Like, right. That's only for walkthrough videos, how to videos of your product, because if you get the script, you can just type it into the prompt and then the avatar will say it. But mostly it's going to be visuals of the product. Hopefully, right? You don't want to have a avatar up the whole time because then where's your thing is you do that. Like I would never do that with like a customer story, right? Like I need to go to the, to where they're doing their business. I need to get their actual voice. There's what they do. That's how I like to do it. Like I film real people, uh, and telling their stories, but like something more technical that somebody is going to like just watch on replay. Like, Oh yeah, how do I sign up to this? Oh, this is how I create this product or this is how I, yeah. So I sort of worry about this. If you jump, everything's moving with AI, everything's moving. So fast. I, to be, to be an expert in AI is a bit of a risky thing to say, I think, because it develops so fast that you're only as, as much as you know, you're an expert, but God knows what's happening seven days from now. And I kind of think apply that theory to, to, to this stuff as well, is that if you tweak, if you start by tweaking a little thing, it's like an Instagram, like you ever seen somebody's Instagram first and then you meet them in real life and you're like, what? It's the same kind of principle. Like if you just develop that further, you kind of think the real world, the impact of that is probably more damaging than you think. I think is that the humans to human, you're, you're, you're presenting a version of yourself that isn't real. I mean, everyone does it anyway. I presume you all have Instagram or some kind of thing you do every day, but with AI that goes much deeper, it's much deeper. And it's when it, in a way it's more real because then it bleeds into your professional life and, and then it takes over. And then you're, what are you left with? Like, what, where's the, where are you? Why are you impressive? It's the, it's the equivalent of somebody saying, I love you. If I looked at you and said, I love you. Yeah. In your, or I sent you a heart emoji, like it feels different, right? The impact is different. It's the same thing. So like, if you lose the core of that, then it's, then you're in trouble, I think. Yeah. But if you tweak, we've done it, by the way, we've done what you just said. Exactly. Like we've tweaked, someone said the wrong numbers or something. Yeah. Wrong day or something like that. And then we fed it in and just went, Oh, it's September the 19th instead of the 18th or whatever. Those little things. So I'm not saying we're, we're, we're not doing it, but it's just something to be, be, be cautious of, I think. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I also think that there is a difference as long as you use it for yourself or when you use it on other people, not just about the permission, but also like allowing them to know that you can do that. Sometimes it's, it's scary also because then they say like, well, can you just do that all in AI instead of like me trying and you try to push for something else. But like you were also talking at the beginning of, about the skills that you're losing. Yeah. Because of AI. But what are the skill, the skills that you need to learn nowadays as a video producer that you must know as a video producer when it comes to AI tooling. And even if you have some tooling suggestion, something that you use on a daily basis. We, well, I think go back to my previous point about the audio is we use the Adobe podcast studio, which is, we, I think I was pretty, we were pretty, pretty quick at the beginning to use it and it was good. And then it very quickly got great very quickly. So I, it went from going, Oh, this is okay. And now I'm like, yeah, throw it in there. Definitely. It saves so much time. But isn't it like, I have the feeling that all the audios are exactly the same now because everybody, everyone's Adobe podcast. Yeah. I started using DaVinci in tool. Yeah. I noise reduction because it's a little bit more natural because nowadays every time I saw, I watch a video, I'm LinkedIn, especially they all sound the same. Yeah. It's always the same voice. Yeah. I watched the, there was a BBC news thing. A few, I think it's about a year ago and there was a woman outside the, outside the white house in the U S and it was the wind was like, and her hair was going, but her voice was completely clear. At all. There was no wind at all. Yeah. Yeah. No, it can be, it's the same with music, isn't it? It's done that thing. Like technology and music is kind of standardized the sound of music. Now you don't, you don't have like the Marc Bolan sound anymore or the kind of the T-Rex thing. It's kind of, it's this sort of homogenized thing. So yeah, you've got to be careful with how you use it. I think, I think it's where you do use it. Right. Cause like if you have the professional microphone and things like that, you're not really going to use it cause you dialed it in so well already. But if you're doing a webinar, like a lot of the times we do webinars and nobody has the perfect camera. Nobody has that perfect audio setup and you really, it's a really good conversation, but you just need it to be a little bit more clear. You throw it into something like Adobe podcast. So it's really good. Yeah. Just so like the goal of the conversation is actually heard. Yeah. Yeah. I try and layer it actually. So if you have like the audio, does anyone care about, is this too technical? Does anyone care about this stuff? Is this, this is good. Like layer it up. So if you've got the original audio, if you, if you treat it and then like really smash it in Adobe podcast studio and then just layer it on the timeline, just layer it underneath and just, and you can adjust the mix between those two. So you've got the real stuff and then you've got the boosted stuff and then you still get a bit of the Atmos of the room. You know, you still, for example, if it was this, you'd hear, that slight echo still, but it would just enrich the words a bit more. Yeah. That's my main thing. I think for one thing that I have tried as well as I give me five ideas, like ChatGPT, or Gemini of X, Y, Z topic. And then I know not to use those five ideas. Nice. I would say the same, like Adobe podcast has been one of my main for editing, but we were talking about layering on top of the timeline, but at the platform, you can also, you know, adjust, right? How much with the music or the background or the voice and all of that. So tweak a little bit of that. And then for pre-production of, I've been using Claude or Claudine, how I called it in Portuguese. So it's been a lot of help. No genius. Nice. Nice. We had another topic, but I think that we don't have the time to discuss about it. Do you want maybe to mention something or we should go just with the question. Yeah. I knew. Is there any question by the way? Otherwise, okay. Um, what if this is, you could be a high school video share with the viewer to the extent that they have used in that, where's the line? Yeah, I think it depends for me. Um, it's obviously very noticeable right now that it's AI and like, all of those product videos that we've done, like, Oh, this is so great information, but why'd you use AI? It's like, Oh, so yeah, but you should, in my opinion, you should tell your audience this was used, uh, for, you know, whether it was the image, whether it was maybe not so the audio because it doesn't manipulate the audio. Like it doesn't like, you know, so I think you just have to create your own, uh, guidelines for it. Like, okay, well, if we created this video image or like this five minute video and it's all video generation, then yeah, this video is, I would personally say this whole video is made of AI. Yeah, definitely. It's like our knowledge to let like to know it. Like my mom couldn't tell it if a video is the itinerary, for example. So personally I think it's important that you stated for sure. Yeah, definitely. Cause I've worked with people that have done it and not said anything and there's mistakes in it and that's really embarrassing. So someone's, there was a couple of images that one of my old bosses put up and he was so proud of it and it was just riddled with spelling mistakes. Um, so yeah, I think you've got to be, you kind of protect yourself a little bit. I think if you, if you, if you say this, you know, I used it for this, this and this, but the other, the other thing is, is when do you do, when do you do that? Like where do you do that? Do you do it in the video? Do you do it in, if you've got some kind of platform you're sharing it on captions, like where it's, so there's, I think it's a case by case basis of how you tell the audience and how much you tell the audience. Yeah, but I think it's important, but I also see more and more, uh, there was a couple of, uh, big example from Apple and Coinbase that they actually did a video that was to be mistaken, to be made with AI. And then they did the whole behind the scene where they were actually producing it. It was about the launch of the Apple Mac, uh, Neo. You think we have time for a quick round of the, of the last topic? Yeah. Uh, do we? Okay. She's like, she's not asking you, she's telling you, which is very important, uh, that, uh, we listen, to, to her. Yes. Yeah. For this topic, especially. Yeah, exactly. Because I, I would like to have a, a, have in the floor now, uh, because it's something that I care deeply about the fact that video production is, uh, a male dominated word. So my question would be, uh, about like how we can change these. What does it mean for you to have allies? Because I'm a man, so I cannot, uh, change that and how we can be alive for that. And, uh, yeah, I just wanted to, and where is the problem coming from in your opinion? Yeah. So when we are producing this panel and discussing the different topics, right. And I was so happy that you brought that up as a, as a potential, uh, topic for discussion. Yeah. So having been working with video for quite some time now, I do face the struggle of having very much, uh, industry that is quite unbalanced in gender. This team, for example, that I put together from summit last year, it was very much unbalanced with the whole media team that I had last year. And, uh, this year I made a active effort of looking for more females to put together in the team. So very much not what I want to get, um, just under half of the team this year, unfortunately. But what I see is if you let the industry, the system just goes by itself, then you're going to keep on having male recommendations because that's, that's just how it is. And I mean, we have so many amazing men also doing video, of course. So that's of course not the problem, but, uh, it is a issue, right? Where are the women? Are they there? They're definitely there. So when I took like a whole day to source different people, I was like, okay, there are many amazing women here and I reached out to many of them. And, uh, yeah, we're working together and some of, um, saving for future projects. But I think it's very much about giving, like doing the work. Like when I was working in TV, in Brazil, we had the same issue issue with, uh, um, ethnicity. So I was part of the first racial diversity group at Globo. And it was very much one of the topics, right? The black people are there and they're ready to work. But if you keep on your own network, you need to expand it because you ain't going to find them. So, uh, yeah, I believe that, uh, all of us are part of the solution, especially the men as well. So if you're asking, if someone is asking you for a recommendation, like where are your female friends, that you can definitely recommend for a job, uh, I would say that not to take too much of the overtime. Uh, I would say, I think that's my take. I don't know what you guys think about it. Okay. Okay. You can go first. Yeah, both of us like, no, you talk first. Um, no, I think it's an interesting, I'm finding it, I find it hard to talk about with regards to this being in this region, because obviously I'm, I'm English, so I can refer to the UK a bit more, um, if that's okay. But I think there's a fundamental, a bigger fundamental problem in that a lot of production, technical production, particularly camera operators, that kind of stuff. Most of those roles are freelance. Mm. Very, very rarely do you find a fully employed cameraman or woman or anyone in fact. So they all brought together for shoots and they work on that period and then they disappear. And there's very little support, uh, financially, whether it's regards to pensions, parental leave, all that kind of stuff. And I think that is the fundamental problem there because of, again, in the UK doesn't really apply in Scandinavia so much, but in the UK, there is that expectation that the man will start, will carry on working and the woman will look after the family as, as ridiculously old fashioned as that sounds. And it is changing, but that is, that's still there. And if that's still there and there isn't the support, uh, financially in the industry, then you're, then you're, you're never going to break. It's a tough thing to break. It will never work properly. So I think gradually it's got to change, but it's very difficult because production companies and, uh, well, studios or whoever's making the stuff don't operate like that. They, they don't operate on an employed kind of basis. It's very short term contracts. So I think there's like a real practical issue there as well, which needs to be looked at. Certainly, certainly. I mean, I'm sorry. Yeah. Uh, I was born in the States. Uh, my half my life is in the States or the majority of it is, and I've been kind of blessed with, uh, the people that I've worked with, like, uh, the chief branding officer was a woman, uh, and a lot of, I've worked for a production glue, which was this live event company that threw on live events. And most of them were women producing, right? And producing the events. But then some were producing video. Uh, luckily I was under some wings of that. I think, um, like I said, I was blessed, but to translate that, I think we need to have more events like this, but more topics about it, more inviting, right? Having opening up a network and making sure that you can not just get the men in your life, but there's obviously women here that wants to be a part of it. So yeah, I think just inviting them and making it more, easy for them to join. That could be a whole panel by itself, but yeah, we say, uh, for maybe next year, 27, uh, now we are already running quite over time. If you have any other question for these amazing people, you can reach out to LinkedIn, uh, and, uh, ask them anything, uh, me included, but I don't know how much I can help. Um, and you had a question. I feel really bad for you. You have a question. Yeah, don't worry about it. I'll keep it short. Go quick. Quick. I know we're being told to shop. I have people, uh, quick, quick, quick, quick, go, go, go. Cause I think it's really important. So me, hi from London video stories. Now, uh, one thing I keep on seeing is that us video producers in that invest so much time into producing something, then ship it to marketing. Um, and I don't know, there's some sort of a thing going on. It just doesn't translate into engagement and stuff like that. Have you been in the position of finding yourself, uh, in need of upskilling or marketing strategy specifically on video, uh, to not let, let marketing fully take over. Um, and if you have, what are your insights on that? I know it's a big, that's a big, yeah, I think the answer is yes, I have a big problem with that. It's hard. So you produce it and you're happy with it and then you have no idea what happens. Yeah, that's rough. But I think that's kind of part of the, you're sort of, you're part of a chain. You fulfill your job in the chain and then it moves on and that's how that is. That's hard though. It is hard. I think that's where the answer is like being as much 360 as possible, like integrating everything. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I mean, I'm going to get so much trouble for that. Yeah. Thank you. This is the sign that I'm getting. Sorry guys.