The Art of Hosting

Hello, my name is Gianfranco Chicco, you can call me Gian. And the next session is a bit of an inception moment, if you remember the movie, because I'm going to be hosting the host of the summit, and we're going to be talking about the art of hosting. So I would like to welcome on stage Monique van Dusseldorp, who has over 25 years of experience hosting, running, creating, designing, managing, tech events and not only. Monique, welcome on stage. Now, Monique, welcome. I'm just relieving you from the hosting duties for at least this session. Exactly. You've been running events, creating events, hosting events, but who are you really? And how did you end up here? Okay, I should have a prepared response. Well, I ended up in this strange combined profession after having studied arts and literature, which, of course, brought me nowhere at the time. This is a long, long time ago. And then by pure accident, I ended up at the European Institute for the Media, where I did an internship in Manchester, then moved to Düsseldorf, and then the Internet happened. And then by the time I started to be interested in, whoa, all this is happening, what do we do? We need to talk about this. And I started to work in events. But I truly believe events are really important when big changes are happening around us. And what are we looking at here on the screen? Yes, yes, this is, I mean, on the left there, that's me and Princess Margriet doing the opening session of the new Institute for the Media in Düsseldorf. I lived in the Dusselstrasse in Düsseldorf, called Van Dusseldorp. This was no coincidence. This happened. And this was the very first event I was part of. This was the European Television and Film Forum in 1992. I was a student, and the woman running the event fell ill, had to be, you know, swooped off to the hospital, and suddenly I was the only one who knew anything about the whole event. So this was very much unplanned. And... Life happened. Well, I also have a retro photo of me here. This is in 2004. I'm an industrial engineer by training. I still believe I do industrial engineering, which means dealing with complex situations, and resources, and people, and learning stuff, and figuring out how to make them work. But what you see is me here at the first official event I was involved with. I was opening the Italian branch of a company. We were launching the world. This is for them in 2004. Now, what you don't see in this photo is that opposite me was almost 4,000 people. And the moment I got on stage and the lights turned on, I forgot what I had to say. I believe I was introducing someone. It could have been Bill Clinton or someone like that. But for a moment, I knew in my mind what I had to do. But, of course, my body paralyzed. And then I'm sure I said something. And anyway, nobody cared that I was there. And then we moved on. So what we're going to be talking about today is hosting, but not just this kind of hosting, being on a stage talking to people. Hosting, we believe, has a larger footprint in an event. It's not just about events. It could be that you're hosting a dinner, that you have to receive people, that you have to welcome them to your brand. So by a quick show of hands, who here hosts things professionally? A handful. Quite a few, yeah. Who here, not professionally, but would like to host things? Otherwise, you wouldn't be in this session, I guess. Yes. And who here finds it challenging to host, whatever it means for you? There we go. Well, what we want to share today is, sure, the art of hosting, but what does that mean? How do we turn it into something tangible? So we want to share with you six things. Principles, pillars. This is not necessarily truths of hosting, because what hosting means changes over time, changes over the medium you're in. You know, maybe once upon a time in Athens, doing it at the Agora is very different than doing it on your own online show. So we're going to try to tackle a few different situations of this, principles that we believe can be very useful. And then if you want to have a follow-up, I'm going to be hosting a lunch today, and we can talk more about that. So let's take a seat. Let's start with principle number one, Monique, the role of a host. Well, the role of a host is, of course, defined by the role of the event. But as a host, I mean, I do something really small. And this may be interesting to know. I'm putting together tech conferences or media conferences, and sometimes I'm on stage as well. But I also, after many years, decided, like, okay, I do all this work. I've met all these people. I never see them again. Let's do something special. And I occasionally host Van Dusseldorp's legendary two-hour cocktail and mocktail party. When I started this, I was still drinking. Now I'm not, so the cocktail and mocktail is important. And it's exactly two hours. And I invite 15 to 20 people that I know or don't know, which is important. Or want to know better. Yeah, exactly. I actually, honestly, read the newspaper and think, like, that's an interesting person. And then I invite them. And the role of the host there is first to make people feel free enough to talk to each other, which means they want to understand the rules. So I guide them in what we do. You know, it's two hours. There's a moment of beauty. There's conversations. I guide them a little bit. These are all very smart, interesting people. I don't guide them too much. And then I actively, I don't talk to the people myself, actually. I look like, oh, that person is a little bit on his own now. I need to connect them to that person. Those two people both love whatever they, you know, fishing. Doesn't matter. Let's bring them together. The energy in the room is a little bit low. It's time for a little intervention. So it's basically looking at the energy of the people as well as the energy of the room and help modulate it a little bit. And it sounds more complicated than it is. It very often is like, let's play some music. I mean, it can be very simple. And you're offering a service, right? The host is a medium for the audience, for the people there. It could be people physically present or on the screen. And often the challenge is to, if you cannot see your audience, how can you find a way to connect with them? I also think that a host is a cultural translator. And I don't mean translating the words. But often when you bring people from different cultures, and the cultures could be from different industries, from different understandings and topics, the host has to make sure that that kind of blends and works. Because otherwise the risk is that you have someone from a technical background talking with someone from an artistic background, and communication is not happening, even though they might have the same words. Right? Yes. And if you bring it to this kind of hosting, being on stage and hosting, that's actually culturally sensitive as well. I mean, I'm Dutch. I'm pretty, you know, I speak, I will interrupt people. And for some audiences, that's great. And other audiences feel that's so impolite. And I work in tech events. And I don't know if you know, and I can talk really well with tech people, I like to think. But tech people, if you ask them, how was your trip here, they will give a detailed overview of every step of their journey. And in a conversation, you sometimes need to say, that's super interesting, but the next step, or guide them along a little bit. Which means that as the host, I need to know what they're going to, what they want to say before I start a conversation. I don't need to be on stage and ask, what is the answer? I need to know already what they more or less want to end on so I can guide them along. So that's a different kind of hosting. Yeah. And a myth is that a host has to be an extrovert. I'm an introvert. I'm very much of an introvert. I think I extrovert well when I have to. But it's about being interested and interesting. Interested in the person you're talking to, if that is the case. And you don't necessarily need to agree with that person to be interested in what they have to say. But also interested in what the room might care for. Or the people beyond the screen might care for. And I think that is a key thing to be a good host. And it doesn't matter if you're hosting a summit or if you're hosting a birthday. There's that responsibility between the quote unquote content and the audience. And having that connection and maintaining that balance. Let's move to the second principle. And I actually said this to you, non-informatica. I said this to you in an informal conversation we were having. Then you quoted me somewhere. And then I had to defend this to someone else who interrogated me. Which is, you know, often we mix up and confuse great logistics with a great gathering. And the host is usually the champion of that gathering. But, you know, up to 10, 15 years ago, it depends on what industry you're in. Organizing an event was very difficult. Selling tickets was very difficult. The technology to run an event, to have a room was very inaccessible to many. You know, content was scarce. There was a lot of friction to make a lot of the things that, you know, a gathering of some sort requires. But then in the last, you could argue, couple of decades, you know, digital technologies have become pervasive. They have lowered the barrier for, you know, promoting an event, running video, selling a ticket. And this, you know, has made content available everywhere. Often the first time you want to learn about something or find out something online, you search for it or you watch a video. So now we operate in an environment of low friction and content abundance. So when I say that I believe that events should be like honey, it's that they should be sticky and messy and nourishing. But bring out the humanness of all of us. Because sure, if you want to produce a video. For an audience, you know, you want to make it as smooth as possible, especially if it's not a live moment. But I believe in this moment of, you know, low friction and content abundance. The live part of it, you know, it doesn't matter if it's digital or physical or somewhere in between, is what makes it worth it. That humanness. The fact that you have human beings giving their time there. I'm sure there's going to be glitches, you know, demos won't go according to plan. But I think that what we, you know, wanted to get away from 20 years ago by, you know, polishing everything. Now it's going to make a big return. Because otherwise, what's the point to travel to a physical space or to be live at an event, you know, being there in real time with a person either in front of you or behind a screen. If it's not about the human side of things. So I think that humanness of things, that humane side of events is going to come back. Because there's so much stuff out there so easy that we want to see the raw side of it. The real side of it. No, I agree. And weirdly enough, it's also when putting together a program, obviously you want fantastic speakers who can speak really well. And I'm very happy when they come on stage and they can do this. But very often, and those are the names that people come for, for an event. They want to hear those stories and learn from them. But weirdly enough, what you remember when you go home and what you tell your family who are maybe not in your industry. Of what you've seen is equally important. So it's equally important to have something really strange in the program. Or to have, maybe you go home and say, oh, there was this musician, Pete. Something that is not what you came for. Because it makes it surprising. And the surprise can be in many different things. But it has to be, you have to experience it and feel it. And it has to make you happy or even sad. Or think or generate something. And you know. Especially if you have multiple voices on stage. If there's no, if everyone agrees with everything. Well, just get one of them. The better speaker, if that's the case. Otherwise, what's the point? You want to have some dissonance. Not in a negative, aggressive way. But you want to provoke different thoughts and feelings. And I think that often the take away, the learning opportunity, the memorable side. Lies in that gap in between the content you're offering and the audience. Which takes us. Yeah. Maybe just one thing. And it's also so important where something is. I mean, the stickiness or the honey is also taking the metro and arriving here and walking along the square. And this walking into this room for the first time. So it's also this whole feeling you're not in your normal world. You're somewhere else. I think that's part of the whole. Which makes coming to the summit from abroad. I'm based in London. You're based in Amsterdam. Makes it also part of the experience. You know, not only this is possibly the best time of the year to visit Copenhagen. But you could argue that a lot of this content could be experienced just by, you know, a non-synchronous video. You could watch it later on. But a lot of the value that you get here is bumping into people. Having those conversations while you're having lunch. Because there was no other free seats. So you sit next to someone that you were not planning to talk. And then you ask them something practical. Then you have the most relevant conversation for you of this last two days. Yeah. Which takes us to the next point. Which is finding your people. Yes. This is very interesting to me. I mean, there are different types of events. I like the events where different industries meet. Because you can learn from each other. And you see different things. But I think a huge role of events as well is to, as an individual, you work in a setting. You work with all kinds of different groups. With, you know, opinions. And who try to influence you or not. Or tell you what to do. But being among your people is such a strong and important reason to go to events. And I see this. I mean, I'm not a developer. But you can feel it when you walk into a room of developers. Or a room of designers. Or a room of video people. That it's just, you know, it makes people so strong. I mean, it reassures them of what they do. And that what they do is interesting and relevant. And these are your people. I mean, that's what events in a way are for. Not for learning the tricks of your trade. Because you can indeed learn them online. But finding your people. And also knowing these are my people. And there's an interesting expression in French which is, which is, you're outside of your own country. For me, it's really interesting to visit an event which has a lot of people that are not my people. I was at this big design conference in Barcelona just as a visitor. These are my people. These are not my people. But it was so interesting to see how they think and how they respond. And what they care about. And how they move around in the space. So, finding your people. An event with only 20 of your people can change your life. And the 10,000 people event where everybody is there. So, it's interesting. And the host is the key, right? It's the linchpin in this. Because it's the connection between the people in the audience, the people on stage. But then, when you have to find the people for a summit or a conference you're organizing, how do you get about that? You're designing. You're going to be hosting not just, as we said, the person on stage. But also creating the welcoming for that. And the content is a big part of it. So, how do you get around finding those people? I think it's very different. I mean, there are events, especially the bigger events, that have a more transactional background. Where you need the buyers and the sellers in the same room. You know, and it sounds more business-like like this. The buyers and sellers can also be the admirers of the artist. Or, I mean, anything where those people have to meet for the world to be interesting. But finding your people is very much also about the messaging. And my part of the work at an event usually is finding the speakers. But finding the right audience is actually much more important. And that's why I also see a lot more hand-picked events where you have exactly the right people in the room. And one of the tricks of the trade is that if you're hosting an event for your people and you know them very well. Go and check out what totally different industries are doing. And bring, you know, a frog from a different pond there. Because sometimes that juxtaposition is what then turns the value and expands the pond. And so the your people becomes a bigger your and a bigger community. And you can find those nuggets that then will stimulate them. Because especially if you're the host, part of your responsibility is to get into the mind of the audience. And try to imagine what they could be interested in. And also that, I mean, a lot of events that are very popular are started by people not from the events industry. They're started by people that have communities around them. That could be via a podcast or a newsletter. Or just by, you know, being in a city and being a linchpin to a lot of different people. So coming together is not like let's do an event. Coming together is our community needs this. They want to see each other. Where can we meet? And a lot of events that grow very quickly start very small. Because it's like, okay, that's where my people are. That's where I need to be. And it could be, you know, hosting something at a pub, right? Hanging out at a pub. So that's what we talk about when we talk about hosting. Which leads to the format. Exploring formats. Now, a format serves a purpose. And when that purpose changes, so does the format. You know, and often what you see is that, you know, someone has been running a gathering, an event for very long. And now they're comfortable with running it. But the purpose in the industry and the people they're representing, you know, even if you think about your life. You know, having a one-year-old birthday is very different than celebrating the 90th birthday or a wedding or a funeral. So the format has to change. You know, the format changes. I remember when BarCamps, for those old enough to remember the BarCamps, you know, started happening about 20 years ago. It was like taking online forums offline. And was a very unhierarchical way of having people together. And then, you know, Web 2.0 came around. So the BarCamps started losing a bit of this novelty. If you remember TED, I mean, TED started in the late 80s. But then when they made their videos available online in 2006, 2007. Suddenly they raised the bar for a lot of other events that could see the value of high production. Then they gifted, you know, the TEDx format to the world. Actually, you, Monique, ran some of the most famous and impactful TEDx's early on. That actually TED was using to source speakers for the main thing. But then that format got maybe too common or too relaxed or too abused. So, you know, events and formats have to evolve. Events and formats have to evolve based on that purpose. Novelty can be important but it cannot be the only reason behind it. And then, as I mentioned earlier, live, either in person or real time, if it's digital or hybrid, is becoming relevant again. Because now having great production and doing everything super polished is not enough. We are lacking something. And connection in the end is the key element of any sort of gathering. I usually think of a framework that I learned at an event I was involved with, and you were involved with before my time, Picnic, the Picnic Festival in Amsterdam, which is an event has to be either useful or relevant or entertaining or actually all three of them. And, you know, if it's not useful or relevant or entertaining for your audience, what is the point of it? I, you know, for my birthday I couldn't meet with my friends and family. So I hosted it as an online session. And I've lived in very different countries. I come from Argentina. I lived in Italy and in Japan and a few other places in the middle. And I remember that day I opened a video room for nine or ten hours. And friends from very different walks of life joined. And there was about 60 or 70 people joining. And it really was a very emotional moment. But I don't want to have more birthdays like that. I'd rather have people, you know, in person. That format was great for that purpose when the conditions were, you know, that we couldn't go out and meet people. But then the world evolves and your formats have to evolve if you want to do great hosting. Now, the why of hosting. Why do we host? What is the point of all of this? Well, I think there are obviously different reasons. I think the conferences, the events, the seminars like this where you have people on stage and people all around talking about what's changing in their industry. It's so important to think about what's going on and talk to your people about how do you see this and what do you see happening. They're basically a form of research to understand better what matters and what doesn't. And where we want to go. So I see these events within industries and at the moment with AI across industries as super important to, you know, just get the awareness and the understanding of what's happening in the world. But overall, I would think, I mean, if a client approaches me and says, Monique, can you help me with this event? The first question I ask is what do you want to have changed in the world after this event? Is it that you want everybody to know what you do? That's a very valid reason. Or is it that you want certain groups to meet? Or do you want that there's an awareness of this so we can make more decisions on that? So you want to think ahead to after the event. I mean, an event just to do an event is a lot of work and it costs you a lot of money. So that's not a good reason. But an event to change something in the world, no matter how small, no matter if it's just, you know, the thoughts of the people in the room. Then you can think back for a while. And then you can also think like what should happen before the event, during the event and after the event. Because the event is much more than just this day in this room. And I think understanding that why is very important. There was a time where, you know, events, for example, in the tech industry, where a few hundred people, maybe a thousand, and then it exploded and became 2,000, 10,000, 50,000. And, you know, if I think about that, it's comparable to... It's comparable to a concert. But in the concert, there's emotion. And many of those 50K events were just about content. And maybe it was exciting to be with a quote unquote famous person in the room. But that, you know, passes very, very quickly. Because it has to move you to do something. And again, maybe it's to learn more. Maybe it's to connect with someone else. Or maybe to feel something. It's amazing how the size of the events and the whole world around very strong tech brands, for instance. You can have, you know, Amazon or name your software, name your Databricks, whatever. They can bring together 20,000 people. And it's training. But it's also like we're together. It's in a world of remote work. The events become the place where you again meet your people and are together again. So that role of events, being live somewhere with other people is huge. And previously events companies did this. And now huge brand tech companies do it. So that world has changed completely. And owning the hosting is important. Again, the hosting is not just being on stage but welcoming people in whatever format or kind of presence. I live next to a big park. And I started noticing a couple of years ago, definitely after the pandemic, that there were more and more people running in groups. And in the beginning I thought, oh, everyone is self-conscious about their wellness and they want to be healthier. But then I go to the park. I run from time to time. I definitely walk and spend a lot of time there. And I started hearing some of the conversations that were happening. Because this was literally hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of people running in different groups. And I noticed that it was not about health. It was about dating. Because people were tired of their apps for dating. You know, swiping left or right. At least in London. I don't know how it is here in Copenhagen. But the running group is the new kind of dating. And you have the excuse. You can go out. And if it feels awkward and stuff, you just run faster or slower and lose the person you're next to. But I found that. It's an interesting dating mechanism. I'd run you. I don't like you anymore. Slow down because I like you. But it made it more open for that to happen. But then I noticed that the people that were hosting these running groups, I mean, some of them maybe were trying to scratch their own itch and trying to find a partner. But also some of them. Were personal trainers. Then, you know, when people said, oh, I really want to run faster because the person I like is fitter and stuff. So then they attached their business to it. So I thought it was a very smart way of hosting. There was a purpose. Which was, you know, instead of using a dating app, let's go for running. But then they were also attaching their business. I can also make you be fitter if, you know, your love interest is running further ahead from you and you want to catch up with them. So this connects the why of hosting. It talks about the format. And that hopefully literally not stickiness, even though you might sweat a lot. But being like honey. It has to be nutritious and humane and offer something. Which leads to the sixth principle. Which is about care and details. And I remember about 15 years ago, actually possibly closer to 20, I was running an event in Italy. And I remember listening, eavesdropping. People in the queue were complaining about the coffee. The quality of the coffee. And this was a very big conference in a very boring venue. And I was wondering, well, I mean, do you go to an event for the quality of the coffee? You would go to a cafe. I mean, you just want to have enough amount of caffeine to run through the day and stuff. And at the beginning, I was saying, oh, well, if people are complaining about the coffee, it's because you didn't have any other value to offer there. And even though I still stand by some of that, I realize that if you're serving a community where coffee is important, you do have a responsibility. Because the content experience is not just what's happening on stage. It's not just the official content. There are no communities where coffee is not important. Staying awake to a whole day of talks. You need coffee. Well, you need. But it's like in a plane. If you're an economy, should you be complaining about the quality of the coffee? Should you have paid, you know, 5,000 figure-on-currency more to be in first class and have a better service? But this had me thinking about the care and details. The Eames, Ray and Charles Eames, are two of possibly the most impactful industrial designers of the 20th century, especially after the Second World War. And they coined the quote that the details are not the details. The details make the design. Or the details make the product. Because in the end, if you look at what our audience cares about, it's usually informed by certain details. And often, as I said before, you know, this is not an excuse to be lazy with the logistics. You know, you have to have a threshold of good logistics. You know, otherwise things would be impossible. But if you understand what your audience cares about, drill down on those details. Because that's what's going to make a difference for them in the time they're spending with you physically or online. That's what possibly they're going to remember. That's what might actually start a tradition. Now, let's talk about traditions for a moment. I mean, we've been to many events that either on purpose or by chance, they build some traditions, right? Yeah, I think good events that last many years have these traditions. That you always go this time of the year to this city. And in this city, there's this one evening where you all together go and have cheese fondue. I mean, this is an event we both visited for many years. They did that. In Switzerland. Fondue. Sponsored by the Swiss Cheese Society. But, you know, it became something that was belonging to that event. And for the organizer, they might think, well, we've done this so many times. Should we do it again? But for the people visiting, this becomes the event. The tradition becomes the event. You want this. And I don't remember what was said on stage. I mean, they were all very interesting sessions for sure for the time. But we all, if we attended, we remember those. You know, those gatherings by, you know, the molten cheese. And the vibe of those conversations, even though we don't remember the words, right? I mean, for me, I consider myself a tea person. I do love coffee. But if we get a bit more philosophical, I consider myself a tea person. A practitioner of the way of tea. And especially in Japanese tea, there's a principle which is called Ichigo Ichie. One moment, one meeting. And even if the same people that are in this room were to come here tomorrow, and we were the same people on stage tomorrow, we're not the same as yesterday. Something has changed. We have evolved. We have moved on. And cherishing that gathering is what matters the most. In a tea gathering, especially in, if you think of the iconic Japanese tea room, they tend to be very small. And the ceremony, some people call it, that we have in mind, was developed in a time of unrest, of warring states, of civil war. And that was a moment for gathering and conversation where tea was excused. But the most important relationship was that between the host and the guest. The host would pick not only the tea, but the tea bowl, the artwork, and the conditions for that moment, for that gathering. And their utmost responsibility was that of the guest. Of trying to generate that connection we were talking about earlier. And I was at a conference a few weeks ago. I took my little tea kit. And actually, in the streets of Athens, I ended up, you know, sitting down and laying a little mat ahead and offering tea to people. And those were some of the most valuable connections that happened. And not because I say so. Actually, what happened is that people ended up following up with me and said, oh, I love that for a moment I was the guest at the center of the stage. And we had a real connection. And there was, yes, the excuse of tea. But what was happening was the sort of connection that often doesn't happen when you're in a massive event where there's some people on stage and then a bigger audience. And you also have an example of details from your own. Yeah. Just to say that this attention to detail, it's absolutely not about that it has to be expensive or that it has to cost a lot of time. It's just that you think through. And you're not going to take a small detail and make it work. And this was a small one. This is from one of my cocktail parties where we made cookies. And my daughter made portraits of every guest of the party. And they all had her own cookie. The name was written on the back. So it's very small, but everybody felt special because it was a cookie that was a portrait of themselves. So really small things can make people feel very seen and appreciated. And it doesn't take a lot of time, but it takes thinking through details. And I think this is one of the key tips or secrets of hosting. Is that helping people felt seen and doing that extra thing. But of course, we had one bonus principle or pillar. You know, you plan a lot, you organize things, you're very meticulous, you do all your research. But then things don't always happen according to plan. Anything can go wrong. Any example comes to mind? Oh, yes. I don't know if you've heard of Wim Hof. He's a Dutch guy who's very much into ice baths and being in the ice. And I had him on stage for TEDxAmsterdam. This was before a lot of things he did and said later on. And he said, no, you know, I want to be in this ice bucket. And then I can show to the people in the audience that I can do this. So during one talk, he was in the ice bucket. And then we could not get him out. He was basically frozen in. So this moment on stage was... Backstage, we were panicking. This is not only inconvenient, it's also not healthy. I mean, he had been in there for 40 minutes already. But you also want to keep... You know, we had to solve this problem in a way. But at the same time, there's like 800 people in the room. And there was a host on stage. And we were very lucky that our host at the time was Pep Rosenfeld of Boom Chicago. He's a stand-up comedian. So he knew exactly how... Not to deny that there was a problem. So he was joking about the problem and that we had to solve it. And this was potentially not a very good situation to be in. But keep it so light that the audience never felt embarrassed or awkward. That the room together just wanted this solved, of course. But it didn't disappear. But it was one of the trickier moments of being on stage. I mean, this doesn't happen a lot. Because often if you're hosting an event, you're running an event, you know that a lot of things didn't go according to plan, but the audience doesn't. But then there's the visible cracks. And from this last couple of days, this is one of the things I'm taking with me. So on opening day, there was a long queue outside. And this could be for many reasons. We all arrived at the same time. You know, the tech doesn't sometimes follow up with the times we have in mind. But this is what... And I then asked him for permission. But then I saw him at the party and said, can I show this photo on stage? His name is Henrik. He's part of the 23 team. He saw the long queue. And first he went out and started saying hello to people. We'll get you in a moment. But then he did the next thing, which is he grabbed the tray with the croissants. And started offering them to us waiting there. And he did multiple and multiple trips. The first one I noticed it. The second one I photographed. And I saw that there were two or three more. And then we're all in. And we'd now forgotten that we queued for what? 10 minutes. Which in the grand scheme of things is nothing. But being a great host is also being quick on thinking on how can I make this better for the audience? Which in the end is the people you're doing it for. The people you're serving. So what we wanted to do today is share a few principles that we hope if you're hosting could be useful. Principles might evolve. There's no absolute truths. But you have a responsibility. You have a responsibility for your audience. For finding your people. For identifying them. Maybe highlighting some of them on stage. To find what matters. What they care about. What you care about. The why you're doing it. And also if you enjoy going to small gatherings or big gatherings, consider not to always be the guest. But try and host one. Seriously. It's interesting. And what could go wrong? It doesn't matter. Yes. So thank you very much. If you want to catch up with us, you know, those are our emails. You'll find us in the bigger room there. So thank you very much for being here and lending us your time. Thanks.