NORDIC VR: PANEL DISCUSSION

Okay, sir, get over here. Bring your beer, bring your wine, bring your food, whatever. It's showtime. I think we have most of the people in here, so we'll kick things off. So, it's great to see all of you here. My name is Eilidh Johansen. I'm a board member of Silicon Vikings, and I'm also the chair of the special interest group on entrepreneurship and learning. And on behalf of the board, and including Charlotte Bram, her son, who could not make it tonight, I want to wish you welcome to the event. This is great. This is a fantastic venue. It's going to be a very interesting event, I know. I suspect that many of you have probably not heard about Silicon Vikings, so I'll just say a few words about Silicon Vikings. We are a professional networking organization, nonprofit, and we try to build innovation bridges and connect the Nordics slash Bolton. And actually, we are about 20 years old. We've been a well-known secret for many years. But I think we do better these days with a lot of things going on. And Charlotte has been doing a tremendous job in getting newsletters out and this and that. And we had some fantastic people working, volunteering for the organization, including my good friend, Christel Poulson. Who's sitting right here, who is a master, he's a media director for Silicon Vikings. If you're not following Christian on Twitter, you're losing out. Because Christian knows everything that's happening in the Nordics when it comes to entrepreneurship. What startup activity, he finds it. He keeps me updated to what's happening in my area of tech. And I'll turn over to our moderator, Damon, over there, with a nice hat. I, first of all, need to thank our sponsors. Every organization has a sponsor or two or more. We have the Bank of the West, which is a fantastic bank. So if you need banking services, please, we have many of our events at their facility in Palo Alto, O'Rourke, San Francisco. And of course, the event sponsor, Unity Technologies. And I thank them very much for inviting us into this tremendous space. And it's really been fantastic for Pet Arne and me to work with the Unity team. And I assume most of you, Pet Arne Ludberg, that you know, where is Pet Arne? It's right here. That's a great suite right there. He has done almost all the heavy lifting for this event. And I thank you. It's been tremendous working with you. And working with Tony, Parisi. Tony is over there. Thank you so much, Tony. And some of the people, Elisa, the metrics, we're working with Tony. And also Laura Mackin. It's been great to work with you. By the way, Pet Arne is a Vinnova fellow. So if you don't know what Vinnova is and what they're doing, you can talk to Ken right there or to Pet Arne. And a lot of interesting things happening in Vinnova, in innovation Norway, in innovation center Denmark. And we have some CERN that's right over there. So if you want to know what the names are, I'll have to talk to them. So I think that's, have I covered it all? I think so. Oh, no. I left out a screaming partner. Sarah May is somewhere here. They're doing the screaming of the event. So we thank you so much, 23. This is the screaming partner. Thank you. And I think that's about it. David and I go way back. I involved David in most of the PR events that I have done. I organized two or three events in the past. And David has been my key guy. He knows all of this stuff. So I'm going to pass the baton over to you. And we're going to have a great first panel. And then we'll have some company switching. And then Tony will take over the moderation of the second panel. So, David. David, the baton is yours. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know if I can get your microphone. Not that I think I need one. Yeah, you know, yeah. So actually, you might want to just hand that down there or someone in the middle. I don't think anyone's going to have a problem hearing me. So, that's right. You just live in from the Nordics. So we're about real-time technology. So I'll put the plane directly up on, you know, Norway. So thank you, everyone, for participating this evening. You know, these are pretty big shoes to fill because normally it's eyelash. So as you can tell, I am not 100% Scandinavian. I am a Sullivan Viking fellow. So that's my extent. But definitely welcome. How many people here? All right. So the reason why I ask that is because I was told, and I agree with this, you know, if you have the pamphlet and you read the bio, why is the moderator going to spend the time telling you about these people? So given the format tonight is a little different than the traditional Sullivan Vikings, what we're going to do is I am going to ask just a few questions to the panelists. But then to keep it very much about the audience engagement, we're going to turn it over. And so please feel free to ask questions. I definitely hope this will be more about you asking the panelists questions than me. So with that, we'll start off with the gentleman who has been up the longest. Thank you. And then if you could please just introduce yourself. And then an extra little fun thing to spin in there for you gents. Share with us something that how many people know about you. That's for the tired . All right. So thanks. And then morning on a paddle. So that's kind of a big experience for me. The only reason I was invited was that I just hosted a hackathon in Norway to speak here. And our hackathon is kind of a soft industry for about 20 years. I've used it for a little bit. But it's really good to be able to be our stand by and work on a new company in that space. Great. So my name is Tomi Kall. I'm the founder and CEO of Resolution Yates. And I've been here for 12 months. And I've been here for about three years. I have one hour longer time than you have. And but yeah. So this is my big startup. And I started my first Yates Studios great out of school. But some of the younger talents here. And I've been working primarily with OWA Yates. I'm broader new to VR than you can get for two years. And we recently released the union for the Monday, May 4 day trip. I'm Daniel Marquetton. I'm the CEO of CCT. And we are behind with the on-site. And of course, it's called the biggest small game in the world. And we're traveling. And yeah. Except for the fact that we were online for a couple of hours. So we are as a language. We're even on our investment. You are. You're very good. And yeah. Now, once I've done that, I still kind of think real well to do next. Certain tactics are a little different now when you want to be on the show. Either it is today versus when one was hoping today. You need to be easier to make money. And I am still . He started his projects in her software when I was! Yes I thought you made you a own Oh, you know, just for the Japanese people. And since LOOK INTO THE WORLD has stemming to a fewaudio.com. Hello, good evening. My name is Sheridan Tatsuno. I'm from San Francisco, born and raised in the Bay Area. I'm the co-founder of One Reality. AB is a Swedish company. We started two years ago because a consulting project failed. We were stuck with nothing to do, so we thought maybe we ought to go. So we basically do VR for sustainable city planning. We're doing medical visualization, operating rooms, some more enterprise driven. We're also looking at other areas like travel, which is things like that. I just came back from Sweden yesterday to attend the Malmo Sustainable Cities Program. And we're talking to a dozen more cities in Sweden to put them into VR. Because they're very interesting. We're using it for travel, shopping, music, and a variety of other health care. So that's what we're doing. Let's see, something you don't know about me. Okay. This is my 10th startup company, and I'm familiar with failure. The first seven I started helped raise $10 million. Six of them failed. So that's part of the course. One went public, but I only got cash on the deal, so I'm still working. Number eight just failed after two years. And number nine is... I'm going anywhere. So I'm a good example of how to fail repeatedly and how to bounce back. But fortunately, we just got funded in Sweden from a housing developer and a TV film studio. So actually in Sweden, there's a lot of interest in VR right now. I'll have to say I appreciate your real answers to these things because I love going to cameras. And I'm a professional sales man. This is aslında some of the boxes in entrepreneur takes. So definitely one of the leading things variety. of arms distance because the amount of requests for candy crush I get would make me want to shake your hand and then also go after you. And then also with Eve Online. So with that, I would have to ask, what would be your advice to new startups and games in VR, especially with what you shared? Yeah, I think it's very important. If you go into VR, you need to have a long term interest in doing that. I think it's difficult to, at least if you're going for consumer revenues it's hard to get your money back from your investment. But if you're a small startup and you don't mind working with other businesses, there's a lot of opportunity to do collaborations on gaming and games. That's something. That's something that I'm very accustomed to. I would echo the Boots Strangling comment. The door will be fully closed on the impact your money into VR startups. I guess by the way. Maybe there's some. We have enough left. But most people are now. I don't know whether they're getting into it. It's not a great stage for VC. But all the time horizon is going to be what we want to have here. In 23 years, 25 years. We really have some power over you to make money. It's good to think about mobile gaming as a pattern to analyze against. I remember going to the TVC trucks for mobile gaming from 2000 to 2005. I think it was the whole period that they really come through bigger business than mobile gaming. And then it kind of stopped being a TVC. Then it started to come again. And then it went on. Then it happened. But it took seven years for the whole concept to work towards the place where we had high approval for the consumer market. And it's probably gone to no real pattern of why people want to buy. We are very blind in the . Obviously people want this. But if people go wandering out, people just don't get the point. And then I try it out and it's super cool. And then when they see, okay, I have to buy a PC, a million cables, degree in driver updates, and it's probably going to cost me $3,000. And then I can. I can play 10 games, most of which I don't know what are going to do with. It's just so far away to be a consumer decision. So it's going to be a lot of bootstrapping. There's going to be a lot of . Right now, the challenge of VR is it's a software challenge. This year we have a lot of decent hardware. It's still not optimal. It's still uncomfortable to use it for a longer period of time. But right now we need great content. So it's worth going back. It's worth that investment. So in a way, this is a perfect opportunity to experiment and find that those . It will take some time. And it will require probably one, one and a half year development time to finish. So I would be optimistic that there is still opportunity of getting a . . . I think there is a lot of . . Maybe not as much in games. I think it's hard to go to a PC today and say, I want to make VR games. I would be very specific. I want to change the world in this particular area. I think this is . . . Yeah, great. Well, hold on to that. Because I think one thing that you brought up. And I guess this would . . . Go actually if you can pass that to Vlasic. Because this question is for him. But one thing I saw recently. And if you read the gamer magazines for those outside of the Echo Chamber. It really is about the lack of compelling content. So that's one of the exciting things a lot of people are talking about with PS VR. Because now you're getting into the triple A game titles and things like that. But one piece of content that always pulls people together is definitely music. And so I know also with some of the things in . . You know, you're doing with June and things like that. And you're trying to look at how do you connect and use different mediums. Or connecting, you know, artists or bands and things like that. So how do you feel that as we wait for the content to get there from the gaming side. The things that people are already, you know, more people spend time in the VR doing. You know, YouTube and Netflix and things like that. How do you see the way that the technologies are changing the paradigms of that type of entertainment? You know, that you're seeing with the music or perhaps . . So what I think and I'm seeing is kind of like . . It's not about the mash-up technologies that actually can bring the artist closer to the fans. And the fans closer to the artist. There is kind of like . You can see the two-way connection between the artist and the fan. And if you can get behind the scenes and get closer to the music or to the rock star. Then you really like the VR and the mash-up. It's still kind of like . . . So what we see is happening is . . Taking a lot of that content and using VR and 3D as a navigation system. Then you can move around in your world of content. You can make a lot of connections between fans and the artist. What you've seen in the music industry for a long time is that they . . It's like banking. The industry hasn't changed for kind of like years almost from the business side. If you see how it's distributed, of course. It's not now just Spotify. Of course, Spotify is fantastic. But it's basically just . . Radio 2.0 for the fans. So actually starting to bring more of the content out using VR, AR. And the combination of these things can be very interesting. Great. So then kind of pivoting from what we're starting to see. It's slowly starting to get more adoption and things like that. But then bringing it to the real world, which is a little bit more toward my bias on the enterprise side. I would ask if we could actually bring that in the microphone. Because Sheridan, the question for you is . . Dealing with very much as we see now globally and especially in Scandinavia, right? The question for smart cities. How do you take better building data, mix that with the gaming industry and all these types of things. What . . . I would say, what are some of the things that you're starting to see as far as the adoption of these technologies? Challenges still that you feel that rural industries have. Particularly folks around the built environment and your background are urban. My background actually is in urban planning. And I've been out there. I've been in tech. And it's interesting that urban planning has come back to the forefront in VR. And for a lot of reasons. And in fact, real quickly. I grew up in a 3D world in urban planning because we did 3D models. And then I had to go flat straight for 30 years. And I felt like I was compressed. And now I'm going back to VR. I feel like I'm going back into the past. And I can move around in 3D. So, 3D is very natural for urban planning. Urban design. We think in 3D. We move around in 3D. It's not strange for us. So, I think that what I see happening is kind of a mentorship. An analogy I use is . . It's like being in a bus, a tour bus in San Francisco. You see the 3D world. There's a director. You can only see what they tell you. And then you can't get off the bus. In VR, you get off the bus. You don't need a driver. You can do whatever you want. And that's what we're doing. We're working with Crunchfish, a company that's an IPO out of Malmo. And they're doing augmented reality. We can manipulate data. We're also creating a multi-user platform. They're gaming now. So, the idea is using this existing infrastructure and sets that we can manipulate data. And we can have multiplayer. We actually created a virtual park in Sweden. So, we have like the Vikings running around in this. So, the Silicon Vikings will love it. So, we're playing with that. We're also talking to the physicians who are interested in using it to do that. The other thing that we want to do is for teachers. Like I was talking to people in Malmo. They're teaching major schools. And they want to have the children immersed in the environment. We can do that. We already do it now. And then we can have butterflies flying to the park. In fact, birds flying to the park. So, we can create any animal already in the world. And kids brought in. So, you know, it's already there technically. I think the challenge. And I know that when I was at the Malmo City Council, I could do a lot of city planners, teachers. And they all want to do things, but they don't know about the area. They have clear use cases. Very clear. Teachers want to teach science. They want to go into the human brain. We can do that now. They want to see the environment. And be candid. So, the politicians are afraid of introducing any development because the environmentalists are angry. So, what we can do is show them various options. This way. This way. We can do sound. We have sound acoustics because we use Unreal Gaming Engine. So, we can put trees in there. We can actually show you the sound footprint. So, you can walk around in the park and see how the sound is from different angles. You can't do that. So, one of the things I think is a lack of knowledge about development projects. Which is one reason why a lot of people are afraid of development. Because the city is in the human brain. And particularly it's very environmentally conscious and sustainable. So, they're afraid of development. But we can actually model. One of the things that they always emphasize is open governance. All the cities would like to have citizens participate in the park. And what that means is that they can put on headsets and walk to the park and make comments. So, we're trying to develop the tools and all the players. So, the citizens can actually walk to the park, make comments, talk to their friends. And actually design their parks as alternatives to the cities. So, there's a lot of really practical knowledge. And right now Europe is way ahead of the U.S. on the outside. And as an urban planner, Sweden is like 30 years ahead of the U.S. right now. Thinking about sustainability. So, Copenhagen is going to neutralize in five years, seven years. We'll be lucky with it. So, one of the things I'm positioning actually. Sweden is the leader in Copenhagen. They're the drivers. And they're the drivers. So, really the North, I call it the Silicon Valley of sustainability. In the cities. Because they've actually been doing it for the last 30, 40 years. I'm talking about it. And I think one of the things that I want to see like the Vikings do actually is to introduce more Swedish companies. And show Americans and the rest of the world what they're doing. It's an amazing thing. So, I was talking to all these cities. And you should see all these things going on. Biogas, the mountain race. All these things. But how do you list? That's great. That's great. So, to that. And I would ask our natives from that region. Because I see that as well. Doing hackathons in different places. It really looks like you give a lot of thought. Those hacks seem less like weekend hacks and more like group concepts. So, there's obviously something there. And I don't think it's just the air and the cold weather. So, what advantages do you feel that the community, the Nordic immersive tech community. Kind of has over some of the others that you've seen exposed to. But then I would also ask. What are some of the disadvantages either due to location or? I'll start because I have my mic on. Yeah. Well, there's many different things on this. I think when it comes to VR, it feels like we're outside looking in. A lot of it is happening here in the west coast of the U.S. So, it's kind of a set of land hackers, software. And actually, it's weird. We're very confused. We don't have a whole lot more to do. We're constantly trying to get our games successful in the U.S., in the U.K., and in Germany, and France. And there is also much competition on the engineering side. So, people are very loyal to this. And which is very good when developing software. It must be super hard here in the USA. People are constantly leaving the company after a year or so. If you want to build a complex software, it will take more than a year. It's just a big moment for me. So, I don't know. Yeah. So, I actually don't have. I can always pop that note for you. Maybe it's because I have to do a lot of work. But I see also now kind of like the oil prices have pretty up and down. There's a lot of tools kind of like what's Norway going to do after the oil? I think one of the advantages Norway has, and also specifically right now, which is my hometown, that there's a lot of software developers that have been innovating, creating the dispositions, treating advanced software for the oil industry to define oil and make oil rates and all that kind of stuff. A lot of those guys are now out of job. They are very international. They are highly skilled. They probably cost one-third of the developers in Silicon Valley. So, there's an untapped international developer community sitting there basically doing nothing. So, that was one of the reasons we kind of had this hackathon last weekend, this weekend, and just to give them a serious wake-up call. And what we found was that amazing talent, you just have to give them some technology, some tools, a little kick in their butts to get them to start getting moving. But there's a lot of opportunity to bring technology into places like Norway where you have a lot of software talents. I think what you really nailed it. Norway is kind of a hidden gem. Because I didn't see it. But the decline in oil prices is a good thing. In fact, the red states are actually shooting people off. So many people are oil and gas right now. The only growth industry for engineers right now is solar and wind. So, up there. The red states already. magazine. Norway is the same situation. I talked to the Norwegians. They said we're screwed long term because if oil prices keep going like this and solar prices keep going like that, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you're out of business long term. So the Norwegian fund is not worth $800 million in some way. It's another money. They're trying to figure out where they put the money and they're looking at infrastructure, software, and they have all these brilliant people there. So they always ask me, what should we do? I say, it's simple. You bring your money to the brilliant engineers in Sweden who are starting companies that need the money. If Norway, part of Denmark, Sweden, and Finland would be an incredible powerhouse because you have the money, technology, and application already. So that's why I kind of think the Nordics, not just like that, but the Nordics who are the resources. Because they know me as a super-region. I agree. My question was kind of loaded because to get Scandinavians to talk about how great they are, I have found. So you guys did rather well. You all did rather well. Very un-American. So then the question, and I would start off with the question, because I definitely play the Eukaryote, so I'm one of those. Thank you. And what are some of the more interesting players you're starting to see emerge from the Nordics and things like that that excite you kind of a lot? You know, the whole scene. Yeah. I mean, Tommy, Lars, ex-employees, not so far. This is from something we have done. There's a nice company called the Tiny Gold Outlet. It's kind of super interesting. Tiny 3 or 4 guys with a lot of books have been created and made money and it's very interesting. Then of course there's a lot in Finland. Poland, and we are tonight. that's kind of what's the line? Yeah, I think I would ask if you have any questions. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's Stockholm. There's been quite a lot of startups that I know. The general manager of Rogio recently started. We have a lot of them that we'll hear more from later on. But yeah, I go back to, I think a lot of it is still driven from the west coast to the US. We're a few. There's some good British companies as well. But yeah, one thing that I would like to hear from people on the panel is this. What's happening? I think you see in VR that really you can see this is things that will definitely change things. One of the things that I tried that felt was really eye opening was I was invited to something called Gunter's show, which was similar to this. So it was a talk show in VR. So I was on stage and there was an audience and they were in their fives and grids and stuff and they could raise their hands if they wanted to ask something. There was a camera there that recorded it and put it on YouTube. And it was super clunky and very uncomfortable and I had to get up at 4 a.m. in the morning to do this show because it was in the US. But it was really, and I hope this is something that will be fantastic, save so much time to not have to travel across the globe and the law and environmental issues that comes up with that. Is there anything that you see that comes to mind that you would like to... And while they think of that, you go ahead and the audience gets your questions ready because we're going to open it up now. Okay, it's not here yet, but here are the big ones coming from Europe. I can tell you right off the bat. Everybody's talking already. Time travel, basically travel. Everybody wants to see Europe, past, present and future. And so VR is perfect for travel. And I think every city and town in Europe is creating VR. So we're already hearing about it now. And then there's going to be shopping. So, you know, shop, right? VR can shop. So think Amazon. So every town is going to be like Amazon selling their stuff. So that's coming. The big ones could be sports, ice hockey and soccer. That's coming. And the European stuff, when you go to sports in the US, in the Swiss, in the Netherlands, just love ice hockey. And when that goes, you're going to see gamification in ice hockey and VR like you've never seen before. That's what's going to happen. Because it's so obvious. And I haven't seen the companies yet. I mean, only because they're in a traditional gaming area. But once it starts moving to real world franchises and business, that's where the money's going to be. Can we open it up? Yes, I'll open it up. Yeah, actually, a little follow up on Sheridan's comment on sports. VR, focus on sports. I mean, soccer is the world's biggest sport and a huge opportunity. And I think the LA Galaxy, to my knowledge, is the only team so far that's dived into VR. Golden State Warriors screened their history. Huh? I watched the Golden State Warriors game. Yeah. Well, the LA Galaxy in soccer are allowing fans to get into the, you know, to meet the team. And it's just recently they started. So I'm not sure how successful it is. But it seems to me that there are millions and even billions of great soccer fans, including in China, who want to see Manchester United and all the British teams play. So it's a tremendous opportunity, I think, for companies to tap into that and provide a VR experience for great soccer fans. Well, the key start is the start of Stanford football players. VR for Stanford. Yeah, the 49ers are going to use it. NFL now is going to use it. That's where it's going to start. And then the soccer franchise in Europe, they get up and say, we're going to do the same thing. Ice hockey, same thing. Basketball, same thing. So it's going to come out of Stanford, in addition, right? And then everybody's just going to compete because any athlete who's worth billions is an angel of investors. And they set up this kind of franchise and they are, right? And you can just do whatever you want. And think of it this way, it's going to be just like shopping mall. The Giants, the NBA, the Warriors, any team is going to be, you know, a shopping mall there. Everything you want, sports, news, everything. Goods, anything you want. Because you can control it 100%. You don't have to give it a perm thing. Real estate is really expensive. And all these liability issues, costs, taxes, everything else. And VR, you can create like a whole theme park with 100 blocks. And it doesn't exist. And it doesn't cost you anything right now. So that's the big one that nobody's even looking at is these massive mega malls that are run by the four sports franchises. Okay? And that's coming, but it's not here yet. Until they figure it out. I always love this part. More questions? So HTC is the, you know, the marketplace that you've seen with the power of VR. I think that's been out of the background for so many years. I think the experience VR, you can get from the side, you know, the market, before, let's say, you know, XN, these are the price that they're going to spend on that. That's true. Yes, I think that needs to happen. Repeat the question, please. So the question is, HTC is running VR arcades. And it's more than HTC is going to China. There are, I don't know, probably 100,000 VR cafes already. Some of it is extremely sketchy. Kind of... And you're almost making their own VR headsets or buying them at the premier places in China and putting them to customers, which is really nauseating, but it's still there and will charge 100 billion a minute or something. So that needs to... I think that's going to develop in China and then going to diffuse to over here. And I think that's really the key to kind of get it out of the innovator circle. Because the pass along effect, it's not strong enough to people go through the pain of making the investment, making the installment, figuring all this out. Going to a kind of a protected environment where you can first watch somebody do it, kind of, okay, that looks interesting, and try it out, and go back home again, and then maybe come again and try it again. And then, okay, this is something I like doing, and then you invest in it. I think that's really the most valuable option to get it out of the... kind of the death toll it's in right now. That brings it back to my biggest challenge right now is this coming back case. They'll go in there once, they're ready to pay for it, wow, that was fantastic, going to do it again, eh, I don't know. For that to happen, there needs to be real value. There needs to be something to do in there which is very different from what you do from a PC. You're not ready... PC is not ready. PC cafes haven't survived in most countries. No, but the PC cafes, I mean, Korea, China, being the prime examples, were the way to develop the content that then became consumer content over there. And just like Coin.org, when Coin.org was the thing, it developed games that were monetizable, retainable, I mean, I think if Coin.org demanded free to pay, just keep the cycle, but they did enough retention mechanics to get over the hurdle of getting their back. So, I think something like that needs to happen. There's a stack where this goes into arcades, malls, theme parks, something where you can try out, and that's an environment where you can get content which is immediately repeatable enough, because I very much agree, here is awesome and you try it out, and then you just, ah, that was awesome. And then you do it again, and okay. Okay, and now, okay, why am I doing this again? My phone is here, I meant to say something. Okay. I'll just jump in real quick. DreamHack in Sweden is actually one of the things, they have like 15,000 people when I was there, and they actually have a signed contract with 16 parks in China. I think that's one way to go to get people to play and work with their community. The other thing now is that you could, and you are willing to do sales, sell the hardware, train people, do hackathons, get investors. People will come if there's money involved, like investors, pitch a game. So I think it's gonna, online game, we know it as theme parks, it's gonna morph more toward a venture pitch type of thing, where you're actually pitching for money that wants your company. I'll take your thoughts on that. Yeah, I just wanna say, I think I disagree with what you just said, because the speed of technology and adoption is kind of like, now in this decade, it's much, much faster than kind of like video and internet adoption. So I really never invested in arcade. All right, the panel doesn't agree. Another question? Yes, so, you guys have been launching a lot of possible mobile platform, mobile PCs, and you've had a lot of surprises with what we saw here with the conference, in terms of gaming and the conference, and the way it's been going. And two is, you guys have been saying about after the little game start, there's like a the plan for about 70 office. Okay, so, yeah, we have reached, by this time, a lot of games, and I think we have the best selling game in the world, and I haven't heard of a game that sold more. So we have a lot of data from all the spectrum of where the metric has gone, and we have a lot of kind of repeated retention data out of our career. So I guess what the, one of the surprising thing is that the engagement metrics are very different from mobile and PC. It's maybe not that surprising when you really think it through, but they are quite different. We see session lengths in Valkyrie up to 60 minutes. I've seen a person play Valkyrie for eight hours a day, three days straight. So the whole thing of comfort and all this kind of isn't true if you really like the game. And I've got to have to see longer sessions on premium games. So that's a little surprising. And if I had the same amount of money I invested from 12 to 16, virtually invested now, I would not put it in VR. I would put it somewhere else. I would put some in VR. But now it's a different dynamic when you're based on various different things. You're in the hype cycle. So it's very difficult to create the right motivation dynamic for a team when they're based on just real small and there is this sort of anticipation energy. We are very much thinking about that now. So what do we do now? We've got Valkyrie. It was probably a major new successful. But that is not what we did the cycle before. It's not what is going to make us successful in the next cycle. So just doing what we did is not the thing we should be doing. So we were very much kind of, okay, I'll be done that. That was amazing. But now we have to just throw the rope of what we do now. Still knowing what we know. And I still really don't have a good answer for that. We are actually having a big internal summit next month or two. And I get closer to that. So in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to come to Ocumbo and be the bed-rasser soon. My health at OVR hasn't changed from when we started. The company, we have the long term strategy from beginning to end. It's all learning as much as possible. I'm shaped a little bit about going into mobile games in the 90s thinking that this is going to happen really soon and everybody's going to go for it. But I guess I'm uncomfortable with fair play? I can't go back much more and I feel that website being sharing mobile phones in your head has nothing to do with the companyknowledge, will make you feel that you can play being here in DT to really roll out is very good for all of you. Yeah, and just to kind of make that clear, the remote from how it could look for me hasn't really changed. It's just very different what you do in each stage of the transition. So it was very clear to us what to do. And in my opinion, it's a very classical first-generation title. It's a bit of a hack. We use assets from Eve. Okay, we do not use a controller. Okay, why can't we do kind of a space shooter? We didn't do that, so it's hacking the environment. Okay, it's a similar hack. The Rocket Arena is another form of hack, and we'll know in May, next year, when that's going to pan out. But it's not obvious to me now what I would do now or where to do it again, where to kind of scrap it. It's not super new to me. And I just did that a little bit more, and we're going to go through the summit and kind of, okay, what's the right path to do now to have a very successful outcome as we have with the ones we've placed? We can hurry it through. Yeah. if you look at the data today, is that Azure is a very new platform. So, Azure has this actor that looks very similar to what you have on Azure. It's a hack cycle. VR is a point maintaining. So, that's different from mobile. So, you'll be porting meetings and screenings. But on the daily platform, people are playing every day because it's a brand new platform. They're going into the rest. And it's very . So, while Tony and the next group gets queued up, one last question. Yeah. Are you going to take a tour of the development experience of the experience of the new form of education of the tool? And what is the의 That's kind of our bread and butter. We have to train everybody in the . Both the technical side and, you know, the content side. the content of the office size. So we're doing it for medical, for operating rooms, for telehealth, more biomedical visualization. So there's just a lot of education and training there. Medical education is going to be huge. Just for the operating room, we could just bring it to 10 million medical students around the world. We could do that. So I think for enterprises to give it, stay in the city of St. John, we'd get involved with the rhythm and patterns of all these people. So there's a lot of education. We just have to tell them. We had to show them a novel. We had to show them what an VR, what an Oculus Rift was. So we had to show all the policymakers, the decision makers, what it was, how they could use it. And then the light bulbs started going on. And then that's the technical side. Then you have to say, well, how can you use it for decision making? So there's, you know, I think, at least an enterprise of medical, training, pretty important training for, social integration of immigrants into Sweden, right? I'm talking about that. It's a good teaching. Swedish culture, all this stuff, right? So there's a lot of teaching here. And then we have to do sports, so I guess anything enterprise and social is going to be a huge part of the training. Yeah, all of reality. So I want to give a round of applause for... applause applause applause applause applause applause applause applause I'm going to go to the next panel. I have the pleasure of inducting the panelists into the Silicon Vikings Hall of Fame. So, Damon, you have another piece already. I just wanted to add on to your... He's not a Silicon Viking guru, but he's fine. Thank you so much. We appreciate you coming out. Tommy? George? Thank you. And Sharon, George, and you came on too late. You came in too late. It was an addition to the panel. A round of applause for a 4 a.m. presentation from Kitchner.